what if you don’t fit the stereotype? — with Sadia

[00:00:00] This is a place where we talk about belonging Welcome to the Inbetweenish I'm Beatriz Nour your host

[00:00:10] Raised in three cultures, two religions and four languages Trust me, I get the chaos

[00:00:17] On the show I chat with those who have lived that inbetweenish life A foot here and a foot there Building bridges across cultures and of course the age old quest to finding home

[00:00:31] Today I'm talking with Sadia Asmat and she's joining me from London where she grew up balancing several different cultures

[00:00:40] She's a stand-up comedian, a writer, and a published author of her brand new book Sex Bomb The Life and Loves of an Asian Babe

[00:00:48] In 2018 she co-hosted a podcast for BBC Sounds called No Country For Young Women

[00:00:55] I highly recommend you check out her work from the links provided in the show notes of this episode

[00:01:01] In her memoir she has a light-hearted, funny and approachable way of addressing sensitive topics from identity to religion to sexuality

[00:01:11] And now in her own words, Sadia, what is your ish as in inbetweenish?

[00:01:20] Ooh, my ish I think it's like chocolate and lime-joking

[00:01:26] I'm basically I was born in Britain but my family is Indian and so I'm Indian as well and that's my ish

[00:01:35] What about your religious ish? Languages that you grew up with, your ethnicity, what about these sides of your cultural background?

[00:01:44] I'm Muslim, I've always been Muslim, I love my faith

[00:01:48] In terms of languages, I'm really bad with languages

[00:01:51] Like English is my first language which is so disappointing

[00:01:54] Why is that disappointing?

[00:01:56] I would like to have been able to speak different languages

[00:01:59] So it's not disappointing maybe but I just think that

[00:02:02] It's the one that everybody's going to do anyway so it'd be good if you had like a different language under your belt

[00:02:08] I studied French at school but then I never had any practical application of it so I feel like I would have liked to have been more fluent in Indian

[00:02:17] Like Hindi basically, I'm really bad at speaking that language

[00:02:21] I just like obviously I was in England and that language came very easily to me

[00:02:26] And then I associated tradition with the Indian language in Hindi or Urdu

[00:02:31] And I think I was trying to subtly take steps away from tradition because I was worried if I start being too traditional

[00:02:38] Does that mean I'm going to have to have an arranged marriage?

[00:02:41] So I feel like kind of tried my best to kind of not be traditional

[00:02:45] Which is fine but then obviously it comes at a price and then when you're older and more secure

[00:02:50] You kind of look at the other side of it but it is what it is

[00:02:56] I feel like there's a hint of it could have been different in relation to your Indian at least like learning Hindi

[00:03:04] Yeah, I think fear has a lot to answer for and I think if I hadn't been so afraid about the implications of it

[00:03:11] Yeah, it would have been different but I think the examples of what I saw relating to that culture from mainly Bollywood movies

[00:03:19] It didn't appeal to me in terms of it felt like a world that I couldn't relate to or access very much

[00:03:26] Because I was like in Britain and in those movies people were just singing and dancing in fields

[00:03:33] And very elaborate outfits and I felt very disconnected from it

[00:03:37] Yeah, it's also a very curated image of...

[00:03:42] I mean, I've never been to India myself but I've interviewed other people of Indian heritage on here

[00:03:47] And my understanding is like it's so diverse Bollywood can't possibly portray all the diversity that comes with that

[00:03:54] And I saw at the end of your first chapter you wrote a list of all the things you learned from Bollywood movies about marriage and relationships

[00:04:00] Because it's funny how much these things do impact us as children growing up

[00:04:05] If that's the only example that we see

[00:04:07] Yeah, it kind of warps our expectations in a sense

[00:04:11] Yeah, and I think I felt like a bit afraid because I had somehow learnt that that would be a repressive kind of state to be

[00:04:21] But then ironically in Britain they kind of label you repressed if you're an Asian woman or Muslim woman anyway

[00:04:29] So it was like I'm certainly not repressed by the way

[00:04:32] But no matter what I could do it didn't matter because I was already going to be pigeonholed as that anyway

[00:04:38] Which is really problematic

[00:04:40] Yeah, absolutely

[00:04:42] I think pigeonholing is one of the things that people who have grown up across different cultures like deal with on a daily basis

[00:04:50] And when we're younger we don't really have sometimes even on our older

[00:04:54] We don't necessarily have the right tools to deal with that

[00:04:57] First of all we don't even understand every time that it happens because it's not really spoken about

[00:05:01] I don't know about you but I think most people would be unable to talk to their families about an incident that happened in school

[00:05:08] Kind of like very clearly pigeonholed them

[00:05:10] And it's a lot of times these things are subtle, right?

[00:05:14] It's really difficult to have the conversations with your family as well

[00:05:18] Because we all know that our parents had it really hard because we were fortunate enough to grow up in this environment

[00:05:25] Where they moved into this environment in general

[00:05:28] So their experiences of walking 15 miles to school versus us getting the bus

[00:05:33] Like someone being mean to us on the bus but like it always felt difficult like you say

[00:05:37] Have those conversations about our experiences because they would just be like oh stop being so sensitive

[00:05:42] Even though it did upset us in comparison to the things and the adversity that our parents went through

[00:05:48] It's like it's not anything

[00:05:50] And also like how do you respond

[00:05:52] Because on one hand it could be argued that them trying to make you feel better

[00:05:57] Is to kind of make you feel strong

[00:05:59] So it's not that they're being dismissive about it but they just don't like seeing your pain

[00:06:03] So they're like don't worry about it

[00:06:05] But you know how do we have those conversations?

[00:06:08] That's a very good question. How do we have these different conversations?

[00:06:12] I'm curious to know about the home that you grew up in

[00:06:16] In terms of how much of Indian culture was bought in there

[00:06:20] Because you belong to these three different cultures

[00:06:23] And I'm categorizing Islam here as a culture

[00:06:26] There's a lot of cultural elements to Islam as well, right?

[00:06:28] And Britain growing up and Britain with Indian parents

[00:06:32] How was your household growing up?

[00:06:34] It wasn't the way it was perceived it would be

[00:06:38] So like I'm stereotype that like I'm probably from a really strict family

[00:06:43] And that I'm not very free

[00:06:46] But actually there were really like casual

[00:06:49] Obviously certain things they were mindful about

[00:06:52] So they wouldn't have been pleased if I'd come home with a boyfriend

[00:06:55] I just was a bit of a chubby kid and I wasn't that interested in guys at a very young age anyway

[00:07:00] The house was quite comfortable

[00:07:02] Parents always trying to protect you from the real world

[00:07:06] And so meaning that you kind of grow up a little bit later

[00:07:10] Because other kids, you know they're going through experiences

[00:07:13] Whereas they're trying to protect me all the time

[00:07:16] But enough room for independence I would say

[00:07:19] So that was great for me

[00:07:21] What was difficult was feeling like that wasn't the case

[00:07:25] Because of what people were expecting

[00:07:27] And so always having to feel like my sense of reality isn't my reality

[00:07:31] And then having to kind of remind myself that actually the other people are wrong about me

[00:07:36] And that I'm actually not what they think I am

[00:07:40] So it's more about like other people's expectations that you felt like you had to...

[00:07:45] Yeah, so they were always asking me about when I'm going to have an arranged marriage

[00:07:48] And stuff like that

[00:07:50] But that wasn't never really going to happen because it would have been my choice

[00:07:53] And people not understanding the difference between forced and arranged marriage

[00:07:57] And always having to kind of explain myself

[00:07:59] So I think that was the thing is that I was British

[00:08:03] But I wasn't allowed to be British

[00:08:05] Because I always had to explain the other issue of me to the British people

[00:08:10] And so there was almost an unwillingness to accept that I just was like them

[00:08:16] That's all interesting because it isn't what you would expect exactly

[00:08:20] You know, in terms of your household and your parents

[00:08:23] Did you feel like they wanted you to assimilate to British culture

[00:08:26] Or you hold onto your heritage?

[00:08:28] Yeah, no the first, the former

[00:08:30] My parents really was...

[00:08:32] Because I already naturally took to it

[00:08:34] That it was something that they encouraged

[00:08:36] So I don't think it's something that they encouraged before it happened

[00:08:39] But because I was like reading loads of books and doing well in class

[00:08:43] I think that they thought that was part of my nature

[00:08:46] So therefore they were happy that I was right

[00:08:50] And they were comfortable with that

[00:08:52] And so it was definitely something that they encouraged

[00:08:54] I don't know about the Indian side of things

[00:08:56] I think that...

[00:08:57] I don't know if you know, I guess people from like who were born in a different country to the west

[00:09:03] They tend to think of people who are born in the west as soft

[00:09:06] So I think that they probably thought I was quite soft

[00:09:09] And therefore they didn't really overly encourage me to be too Indian

[00:09:14] Because Indian people are tougher, they're more Machiavellian in my opinion

[00:09:19] Oh wow, that's a strong...

[00:09:21] I know I'm going in...

[00:09:23] I'm not holding out anything

[00:09:26] But definitely like Indian people or ethnic people, some of them

[00:09:30] Or the majority of them in my opinion

[00:09:32] The majority of them are stronger and tougher

[00:09:34] Mentally they're more resilient

[00:09:36] They've been through harder things and they will do what they have to do to survive

[00:09:41] Whereas people in the west, it's not to say that they can't be all of those things

[00:09:45] But certainly not on the same level

[00:09:47] And so I guess there was an assumption that was softer

[00:09:50] Maybe that's the other reason why my Britishness was kind of more...

[00:09:54] I was assimilating more to a British style of living

[00:09:58] Because also that's my environment, that's where I was

[00:10:02] Yeah, it's funny because I was interviewing someone in the US

[00:10:05] Who's parents also immigrated to the US

[00:10:08] And they were saying that their parents were so afraid of them being labeled as children of immigrant

[00:10:13] That they really wanted them to assimilate into American culture

[00:10:16] And I see both models

[00:10:18] And what I mean by that is I've also seen and spoken to many people

[00:10:23] Who grew up in a minority in the west

[00:10:25] And their parents were really, really strongly connected to their heritage

[00:10:30] And tried to really enforce those rituals and those traditions and way of life

[00:10:36] And I'll share about myself here

[00:10:38] So I kind of opposite to you

[00:10:40] I grew up as a minority as well

[00:10:43] But I grew up as a Christian minority in the Middle East

[00:10:46] Where it's predominantly a Muslim part of the world

[00:10:49] And I think my parents did very much try to differentiate between

[00:10:54] Our minority but we stick to our minority

[00:10:57] You know?

[00:10:58] So in the sense that I was not encouraged to assimilate at all

[00:11:02] So it's always interesting to speak to people who had the opposite experience

[00:11:07] Yeah, I feel like I had a different experience definitely

[00:11:10] But it reminds me what you just said

[00:11:12] There would be the odd time where my family would be like

[00:11:16] Don't forget that you're not English

[00:11:18] So it was like they wanted both ways

[00:11:21] They wanted me to be English

[00:11:22] But they were always telling me that I wasn't as well

[00:11:24] So it's fun being a kid

[00:11:28] How did you make sense of that as a kid?

[00:11:31] I assumed what they were trying to get at is that there's like a line

[00:11:36] There's boundaries so I could be, I guess, English in some sense

[00:11:41] Or to some extent

[00:11:43] But not entirely

[00:11:45] So like something that are associated with British culture

[00:11:50] Are like drinking alcohol or going out clubbing

[00:11:53] And stuff like that

[00:11:54] And so those were not things that I would permitted to do

[00:11:57] Not that I really wanted to

[00:11:59] So probably wasn't so forced

[00:12:02] Because they were obviously a little bit protective

[00:12:05] At the same time, if I wasn't trying to do those things anyway

[00:12:08] It wasn't like I needed much convincing

[00:12:10] I didn't really worry about it too much

[00:12:13] I think when you're young

[00:12:14] Like it wasn't a big hang up that I had about trying to figure out who I was

[00:12:19] I think that's what the world is expecting of you

[00:12:22] But like I didn't really hold myself to that standard

[00:12:25] Because I wasn't confused about who I was

[00:12:27] You know, I was quite comfortable with who I was

[00:12:29] That's so refreshing to hear

[00:12:31] It's not something I hear very often

[00:12:33] It's kind of rare

[00:12:35] I wonder if that had to do with the community you grew up with

[00:12:40] So your British Indian

[00:12:42] Did you grow up in a British Indian community as well

[00:12:45] Or was it predominantly something else?

[00:12:48] Did you feel like a minority?

[00:12:50] No, basically I grew up in East London

[00:12:53] And East London is a very, very mixed community

[00:12:56] So there's people from all black grounds

[00:12:58] In fact, white people are the minority

[00:13:00] So the school I went to

[00:13:02] There was a lot of diversity from all backgrounds

[00:13:05] I guess that's probably why my ish wasn't a thing

[00:13:09] Because I didn't really look for belonging

[00:13:12] It felt like I belonged in that environment

[00:13:15] Because everybody came from different backgrounds

[00:13:17] So yeah, I definitely did a struggle with that

[00:13:21] Yeah, that's all interesting

[00:13:23] Because I think had you maybe grown up in a slightly different neighborhood

[00:13:26] Your experience would have been completely different

[00:13:28] But because you didn't necessarily stand out in that environment

[00:13:31] Then you felt like you belonged

[00:13:34] I think sometimes it is the pressure of the outward gaze

[00:13:37] You know, like because there was a lot of older people from the community

[00:13:41] And what I mean by that is like older Asian people

[00:13:44] You know, keeping their eye on you

[00:13:47] And you know, you're not understanding what that meant

[00:13:51] So feeling like you're part of a wider community or construct

[00:13:54] But not understanding what your commitment to that construct is

[00:13:58] Or what your requirement to be part of that construct is

[00:14:02] So I think when you grow up a little bit more

[00:14:05] It could be a bit overbearing

[00:14:08] It was for me, it was never to the point where I became

[00:14:11] I was oversmothered or I felt restricted

[00:14:14] That I couldn't do the things that I wanted to do

[00:14:17] At the same time, feeling like you might be being judged

[00:14:20] Is not nice feeling

[00:14:21] But a lot of these things they are not said, they exist

[00:14:25] But if you're not aware of them then you know, ignorance is bliss

[00:14:28] But then slowly, slowly, if you figure out what's going on

[00:14:31] It can be a bit frustrating when you see other white people or communities

[00:14:36] Not being scrutinized or judged in the same way

[00:14:39] But at the same time, like people just looking at you

[00:14:42] They can't really figure out much because you know

[00:14:45] You can't just judge somebody by the outer appearance and stuff

[00:14:48] So a lot of communities they do look out for each other

[00:14:51] And you could take the positive and like you know, leave it bad maybe

[00:14:56] Oh that's easier said than done

[00:14:58] So you touched on something very interesting

[00:15:04] You said earlier, it felt like I belonged in my environment

[00:15:07] And you were talking about your East London mixed community that you grew up in

[00:15:12] I want to push you a little bit on this point

[00:15:15] And I want to ask, was it that you felt like you belonged

[00:15:18] Or was it that you felt like you fit in

[00:15:21] Like you had to more of who you were

[00:15:23] I think that we were all so mixed

[00:15:26] Everybody came from somewhere different

[00:15:28] So that we were all belonged or fit

[00:15:31] Whatever way you look at it

[00:15:34] Because it wasn't a place for any of us

[00:15:37] Maybe that's too harsh

[00:15:39] But it definitely didn't feel like it was a majority for anybody

[00:15:43] So then I guess it becomes a place for all of the minorities

[00:15:47] So I think there wasn't one kind of population

[00:15:51] And when did you become aware that you were growing up in this mixed environment

[00:15:56] But that was not necessarily representative of Britain in general

[00:16:01] I don't think that I really clocked it to be honest with you

[00:16:05] Until I was maybe my mid-twenties

[00:16:08] As opposed for a long time I took for granted that the way I was living

[00:16:12] Or who I was living with was like that for everybody

[00:16:15] And I'm not great at geography

[00:16:17] So it's only when I realised that London is only one part of the UK

[00:16:21] And that the North looks very different to the South

[00:16:24] So the South is typically quite a mixture of diverse origin

[00:16:28] Whereas I then began to meet people from the North who had moved to the South

[00:16:32] And then they would be different basically

[00:16:35] So the first differentiation I became aware of was of the North and South

[00:16:40] Because in the UK there seems to be this difference

[00:16:44] In attitude, in perspective, in lifestyle, in experience between North and South

[00:16:49] Then I would find out that the North is definitely way more white

[00:16:54] And that we're considered a minority there

[00:16:57] But it was weird to be considered to be a minority

[00:17:00] When that was somebody telling me that I'm a minority

[00:17:03] Rather than me experiencing or feeling that way

[00:17:07] But all this kind of media and statistics telling me that I'm a minority

[00:17:13] Which is something that I didn't really know or experience

[00:17:16] So I think it's when you meet people from different walks of life, different places

[00:17:21] Different to you, then you figure out

[00:17:24] You know, you put the pieces of the puzzle together

[00:17:27] That's a very interesting way of experiencing minority

[00:17:32] Or not actually feeling like a minority

[00:17:34] I have to say I haven't come across that yet

[00:17:36] Like I mean, and what I mean by that is

[00:17:38] I haven't interviewed anyone who has not discovered it themselves

[00:17:42] Yeah

[00:17:43] The interesting thing is you come from a Muslim Indian heritage

[00:17:48] And Islam in India is a minority

[00:17:51] And a discriminated minority from my understanding growing up in London

[00:17:55] Was that something that was bought to your attention or experienced

[00:17:59] Or you ever felt it within like Indian communities in the UK?

[00:18:04] No, so I guess this conversation alone is highlighting to me how ignorant I was about my identity

[00:18:11] And maybe that's the thing that was missing is an educational piece for me at that age

[00:18:16] Growing up about like my history and where I came from

[00:18:20] And all of those good things

[00:18:22] Basically, it would be people coming up to me saying where are you from?

[00:18:26] And I will say I'm from India and then they would like then what religion are you?

[00:18:30] Oh, there's not a lot of Muslims there

[00:18:32] So I look like I'm from Pakistan

[00:18:35] So people would just assume I'm Pakistani

[00:18:38] And then I would find out that actually Indian Pakistan actually used to be the same country anyway before the partition

[00:18:44] So yeah, I guess it's just like a trip in history through

[00:18:50] Like other people's perceptions of me

[00:18:52] I didn't really know even that I was South Asian

[00:18:55] Like I didn't really know what that was

[00:18:56] That wasn't even a phrase to me

[00:18:58] I always thought I was Asian

[00:18:59] But when you put Asian into Google

[00:19:01] That's like Chinese and Japanese

[00:19:03] And so now I'm South Asian

[00:19:05] So it's like just figuring out things as my curiosity or other people's curiosity brings it up

[00:19:11] So on one way you could say it's quite luxurious

[00:19:14] Compared to maybe the other people that you've spoken to who may have had really bad bullying or racism or adversity

[00:19:21] Like yeah, I guess a bit of education about that would have been really helpful

[00:19:26] I think on the one hand is tricky because people expect of me to be a spokesperson and explain things for them

[00:19:34] So I didn't want to know it so that I could explain if other people

[00:19:38] But it's still good to have that knowledge so that you understand everything what's going on around you basically

[00:19:44] You said it's a luxury not to have been exposed to that

[00:19:49] I think it's refreshing to hear a different perspective

[00:19:53] Where you didn't have to experience this as a child

[00:19:55] And I think as we grow up obviously like we have more tools and capacity to kind of like process

[00:20:01] These things if they do happen as we get older

[00:20:03] But as children when these things happen like you're in a loss

[00:20:06] You don't know what to do with it, you know

[00:20:08] We don't live in a world where we can talk about this

[00:20:11] And what I mean by this is like racism

[00:20:14] Because why people are really afraid of being labeled as racist?

[00:20:19] I don't know if that's the same where you are but in the UK

[00:20:23] Someone would rather be called like a murderer than being called a racist

[00:20:28] There's a lot of fraught tension when it comes to racism and different races

[00:20:33] And people just don't know how to bring up the topic

[00:20:36] And that's what's really frustrating

[00:20:38] So I'm a comedian so I like talking about things in a kind of head-on way

[00:20:42] But that's not everybody's comfort level or that's not comfortable for everybody which I understand

[00:20:47] But then like for me being awkward and sitting in silence or being like

[00:20:52] Upset in the corner is not the solution

[00:20:54] So I think that's the problem where you have this topic

[00:20:58] And both sides feel like they want to talk about it

[00:21:01] But they're not empowered to have these conversations

[00:21:04] And I don't know that it's going to ever get any better

[00:21:07] I just don't think that we're close to where we could be

[00:21:10] Because people are just always afraid of what they can and can't say

[00:21:14] Especially these days

[00:21:16] Yeah, that's true

[00:21:17] There's a very big now more than ever

[00:21:19] There's a huge council culture

[00:21:20] But I'm really glad we went there and I'm really glad you bought up racism

[00:21:24] Because it is a subject that I think people tend to stay away from

[00:21:28] Look, I'm not here to always play the race card

[00:21:31] I'm really, really not

[00:21:32] But if it occurs, then you should be entitled to call it out

[00:21:36] And so it feels as though racism is really only something that white people can feel offended by

[00:21:42] It sounds like it's a joke

[00:21:44] You know, but it's like it feels like that at times

[00:21:46] Because like we can't even suggest that a white person is racist

[00:21:50] Like you can't even suggest it

[00:21:52] But then something racist could have gone down

[00:21:55] But it's like completely denying it

[00:21:57] Yeah, that's the thing though

[00:21:59] I think that the lack of discourse around this and the sensitivity around it all

[00:22:05] And I don't think the sensitivity only comes from white people

[00:22:08] I think there's a lot of black people and people of color

[00:22:11] There are also quite sensitive talking about these issues

[00:22:14] And it just doesn't get spoken about enough with different groups of people

[00:22:18] Like I think it's great to talk about it with your own circle

[00:22:23] But Chantzoar, a lot of people in your circle would have had

[00:22:26] I don't know, like a similar experience or come from a similar background

[00:22:30] But what I find more interesting is talking to someone on the completely different end of the spectrum

[00:22:34] And actually having a discussion and understanding

[00:22:38] So where did these notions come from?

[00:22:40] In my point of view, racism comes from ignorance

[00:22:44] That's what I truly believe

[00:22:46] There has been enough discourse, there has been enough education

[00:22:49] These notions that have been passed down from generations to generation

[00:22:52] And you don't even know where they come from anymore

[00:22:55] Sometimes it's not even that deep from what I've experienced

[00:22:59] Is that it's just a power thing

[00:23:01] You know, it's the way of controlling

[00:23:03] And if you look at it like on the one hand

[00:23:05] You can take it personally

[00:23:07] But on the other hand, the racist is benefiting from the situation

[00:23:12] So it could just be that they just don't hate you

[00:23:15] But they just want to be better than you

[00:23:17] So there's advantage that the racist has

[00:23:20] That can't be ignored

[00:23:22] And it may not just be about hate

[00:23:24] Or that you're different or that you're a different color

[00:23:27] You know, you're not good enough

[00:23:28] Or all of this

[00:23:29] It's just a lot of ways that racism kind of operates

[00:23:32] And one of them is where they just have a complete different privilege

[00:23:36] There's a lot of privilege involved with it

[00:23:39] And again, I don't want to be seen as the person who's always overcoming some sort of struggle

[00:23:45] But it's like when I try to present myself in a way that is very different from the narrative

[00:23:51] That is expected of me

[00:23:53] I'm not understood, I'm not seen and I'm not heard

[00:23:57] So what I'm trying to say is I don't subscribe to you know

[00:24:01] The way that I'm perceived

[00:24:02] But it could be profitable right if I if I cashed in on my adversity

[00:24:07] Or if I cashed in on being a victim but I'm not

[00:24:10] And I deliberately choose to operate outside of those kind of delineations

[00:24:15] But there's a price

[00:24:17] So often the people who's not making noise about it

[00:24:20] They're still struggling but

[00:24:22] I don't want to be seen as smaller than I am

[00:24:25] Because I don't believe that I am

[00:24:28] But if you buy into all of that

[00:24:30] You could do quite well out of it

[00:24:32] And there's plenty of examples of people always crying about racism and stuff like that

[00:24:35] But I think that is lazy

[00:24:37] I think it's self-defeating

[00:24:39] It's just the shame because it's like most things

[00:24:42] It becomes monetized

[00:24:43] And it shouldn't be about that

[00:24:46] So you mentioned something there

[00:24:48] And you said like how I present myself

[00:24:50] And so I wanted to ask you a question

[00:24:52] How do you introduce yourself, Sadiya, to someone new

[00:24:55] And most people say well it depends on the person you're speaking with

[00:24:59] But imagine the most neutral person possible

[00:25:02] Probably someone that doesn't like touch any of your cultural backgrounds

[00:25:06] How would you actually introduce yourself?

[00:25:09] Well I think how I present myself in the non-obvious ways

[00:25:14] So my voice is a very cockney English accent

[00:25:17] That's my voice

[00:25:19] My attitude you know I'm funny

[00:25:21] I'm silly sometimes as a comedian

[00:25:24] You know I tell jokes

[00:25:25] So how I present myself is I'm very comfortable in my identity

[00:25:30] And as we touched on before, it's because these negative experiences that everybody assumes

[00:25:36] That everybody who looks like me has had

[00:25:38] Like I present myself as a confident happy person

[00:25:42] I don't feel like I have to explain everything

[00:25:45] Like I wear a head job on my head

[00:25:46] So that pretty much explains to people that I'm a Muslim

[00:25:49] I'm not white, so people can see that I'm brown

[00:25:52] I don't feel like I need to throw a bunch of pronouns into people's faces

[00:25:56] I don't really roll like that

[00:25:58] I don't feel like everybody needs to understand me

[00:26:01] I don't chase acceptance like acceptance has to come from within

[00:26:05] I think that's a very powerful statement

[00:26:07] And I completely agree with that

[00:26:09] You mentioned wearing the head job

[00:26:12] And I want to ask you about that

[00:26:13] I'm curious to know about your journey with the head job

[00:26:16] I understand that you chose to wear at the age of 19

[00:26:19] I believe I read that in your book

[00:26:20] Well done, I'm very happy that you read it

[00:26:23] Thank you

[00:26:24] Waring the head job is a very personal experience

[00:26:26] And people come to it from so many different angles

[00:26:29] Some people are encouraged to wear it

[00:26:31] Some people come to this decision themselves

[00:26:34] Some people choose to remove it or to wear it differently

[00:26:37] It's kind of crazy to say but even that can be controversial

[00:26:40] In certain circles

[00:26:41] So I'm going to ask you what was your journey like for you?

[00:26:45] It was a funny, it was very strange

[00:26:48] I don't know if anybody's experience is like mine

[00:26:51] So I didn't have any pressure to wear it from home

[00:26:54] Nor when my family wore it

[00:26:56] Typically obviously during prayer we would wear it

[00:26:59] But that's just part of the custom

[00:27:01] So when I was a kid

[00:27:03] I would wear it when I went to the Saturday school

[00:27:05] Which had a religious aspect to it

[00:27:07] But then I would take it off

[00:27:09] And I always wondered to myself

[00:27:11] Why am I not doing this all day?

[00:27:13] Why do I need to do it?

[00:27:15] But like I didn't have that kind of explained to me as such

[00:27:18] So I kind of decided for myself that I would wear it

[00:27:22] And everything was all going fine until

[00:27:25] Like terrorism started going off

[00:27:28] And then people start getting really afraid

[00:27:30] By this time I'd been wearing it for a few years

[00:27:33] I guess when I started wearing it it wasn't very common

[00:27:36] And so it didn't feel like a big thing

[00:27:38] But then what happened was

[00:27:40] When more people started wearing it

[00:27:42] The media started trying to own it

[00:27:45] And that's where it became difficult

[00:27:47] Because what happened is most people

[00:27:49] Like British people, non-Muslim people did not understand it

[00:27:52] They probably had a fear that

[00:27:54] We want everyone to wear this

[00:27:56] That's what we want from this head scarf

[00:27:58] And that's not the case

[00:27:59] I don't care what someone else is doing

[00:28:01] But also leave me alone

[00:28:03] And let me do what I'm doing

[00:28:04] It just became frustrating for me

[00:28:06] That this thing that I wore

[00:28:08] That I really enjoyed wearing

[00:28:10] And for myself, for nobody else

[00:28:12] Was now I was being told that it was

[00:28:15] Because I was repressed

[00:28:16] Or because a man was telling me to do

[00:28:18] It was again my reality

[00:28:20] Was being explained to me

[00:28:22] And it was very different to my understanding of my own reality

[00:28:26] It's very patronizing

[00:28:28] Yeah, it sounds very patronizing

[00:28:31] It's interesting that you see that no one in your family

[00:28:34] You know, you were the hijab

[00:28:36] And you decided to wear it

[00:28:38] I think like other factors in your story

[00:28:42] This is also not the kind of like the expected narrative

[00:28:45] That people usually come into this with

[00:28:48] So I'm really glad you're here to show a different perspective

[00:28:51] And it's like your own experience

[00:28:53] Thank you, that's really sweet

[00:28:54] Thank you

[00:28:55] I feel like Islam and the Muslim faith

[00:28:57] Played a big role in your life

[00:29:00] I mean it meant a lot to me

[00:29:02] I think it was something that I had space

[00:29:04] To understand and learn for myself

[00:29:07] Which was good

[00:29:08] It was an apprachorized thing

[00:29:10] I did the things that everybody does

[00:29:12] You know, you learn how to read Arabic

[00:29:14] You finish the Quran, you learn how to pray

[00:29:16] But in terms of practicing it

[00:29:18] I was able to do that myself

[00:29:20] And you know on the one hand

[00:29:22] People can always be dissatisfied

[00:29:24] You could always say that you know

[00:29:25] I should have been pushed more

[00:29:26] Or should have been pushed less

[00:29:28] But you know at some point you do have to take accountability for your own

[00:29:31] You know, behavior I suppose

[00:29:33] And I started fasting

[00:29:35] And I really love my religion

[00:29:37] You know, I'm not a perfect person

[00:29:38] So I definitely don't want to kind of associate anything wrong with my faith

[00:29:42] But I felt a very strong connection to God

[00:29:45] And it helps me through everything

[00:29:48] I feel really lucky because you know

[00:29:50] I know you mentioned you are agnostic

[00:29:51] But I think because I have faith

[00:29:53] Like I think the idea of me not having faith is terrifying

[00:29:57] And it really, really helps you through challenging times as well

[00:30:00] You know, having gratitude

[00:30:02] And having acceptance of the things that you can do and the things you can't do

[00:30:07] And I try to use my faith to help me

[00:30:10] I guess to become a better person

[00:30:12] Not always but I try my best to use it as a way of improving who I am

[00:30:20] Hmm

[00:30:22] You know, I was just...

[00:30:24] I've been agnostic for a very long time

[00:30:26] And I used to say that I may confuse agnostic

[00:30:29] Now I say I'm a convinced agnostic

[00:30:31] And yet

[00:30:35] I still sometimes wish I had faith

[00:30:38] Because I do think it would make moments in life easier

[00:30:42] So I completely understand when you say

[00:30:45] The idea of not having faith scares you

[00:30:48] You know, or not having your faith scares you

[00:30:51] I completely understand that because even as someone who is agnostic and comfortably agnostic

[00:30:58] I do see how religion helps people

[00:31:00] I think there's different sides to religion obviously

[00:31:03] There's a very positive side to religion

[00:31:05] And I think it can be...

[00:31:07] There's a word in Arabic that's coming to my mind

[00:31:09] Sanat which means like a support to people

[00:31:12] I think it could also be really misused

[00:31:15] My argument is that it's not a faith

[00:31:18] It's the people that choose to misuse it

[00:31:21] And I think sometimes it's especially in the recent times

[00:31:25] It feels though religion seems to be a massive scapegoat

[00:31:29] And you know, it's just...

[00:31:31] I feel like it's gone too anti-religion

[00:31:34] In terms of...

[00:31:36] In general

[00:31:37] And we've been dictated to us to what isn't acceptable

[00:31:42] Whereas, you know, we should be able to make those choices for ourselves

[00:31:45] Not to feel like we have to do something one way or the other

[00:31:48] And I'm not really here for...

[00:31:50] You know, it feels like a very oppressive

[00:31:52] You know, where people are telling you what is...

[00:31:55] What isn't cool and all that

[00:31:57] And type of making religion unfashionable

[00:32:00] Well, religion wasn't about fashion in the first place

[00:32:03] And so it feels like it's very demonized

[00:32:06] And it's really offensive

[00:32:08] Like women to accept everybody but not faith

[00:32:11] Yeah, so it definitely push us to be better versions of ourselves

[00:32:15] And some people I think they don't like being told

[00:32:18] How to be better versions of themselves

[00:32:21] And I get that...

[00:32:22] I get that there's parts of the faith that

[00:32:24] You know, it doesn't maybe suit the lifestyle we prefer to be living

[00:32:29] But like, you know, you try your best to do things properly

[00:32:33] And we're not perfect

[00:32:34] So that's why God is forgiving

[00:32:36] And that He will hopefully understand our shortcomings

[00:32:39] I think it's for me, I'm really, really blessed

[00:32:42] And I feel very fortunate to have the faith

[00:32:44] It's a constant in a very unstable environment

[00:32:49] So I completely agree with you that

[00:32:53] It's the people who definitely misconstrued and misused religion

[00:32:56] To advance their in agendas

[00:32:58] Where I will challenge you

[00:33:00] Because I've had this debate so many times

[00:33:03] I think religion is...

[00:33:05] And I'm putting all religions in a bucket here

[00:33:07] I think religions is one way of explaining morality

[00:33:12] But I think morality doesn't just come from religion

[00:33:16] So where do you think it comes from, our soul as well, right?

[00:33:19] Because I tend to agree that's what Islam says

[00:33:21] Is that we know what is good and bad

[00:33:24] And yes, your religion helps remind you what that is

[00:33:27] But you already know that you shouldn't slap somebody in the face

[00:33:30] You know what I mean?

[00:33:32] So I agree with you

[00:33:34] But I think the temptation to veer off is greater without the faith

[00:33:39] The faith helps you consciously

[00:33:42] Put into practice the things that you already know is right and wrong unconsciously

[00:33:47] That's an interesting way of looking at it

[00:33:51] Because you're right, you know, as long as you're not mentally unwell or whatever

[00:33:56] As long as there's no other circumstances

[00:34:00] Where you're a sensible person, you had an education

[00:34:03] You can kind of figure out what is and isn't appropriate

[00:34:06] But look with these different agendas that you talk about

[00:34:09] Where morality is being negotiated let's say

[00:34:13] Then that's what the religion is therefore to help us remember

[00:34:17] This is one version of it right?

[00:34:20] I'm not 100% sure I agree

[00:34:22] So I think like even someone who's illiterate

[00:34:24] They will not kill not because their religion says so

[00:34:28] If they don't have a religion but just because it just feels fundamentally wrong to take someone's life

[00:34:35] I do think there's a sentiment right now where even when you're if you're religious

[00:34:39] Like you almost can't say it too much because it's not cool to be religious anymore

[00:34:44] And I think that's really problematic

[00:34:46] Yeah

[00:34:48] So I wanted to pivot the conversation back to cultural expectations that you might have felt

[00:34:54] Whether it's directly by your parents or the community

[00:34:58] I wonder if you faced any cultural expectations growing up

[00:35:02] That you didn't necessarily understand

[00:35:05] One of the things you talk about in your book in the very beginning

[00:35:08] You talk about the fear of an arranged marriage

[00:35:12] Yes

[00:35:13] Did you feel like that was a cultural expectation for you at a certain point in time?

[00:35:17] First of all, was it ever actually explicitly stated or was it just like a lingering thought that just popped in?

[00:35:23] It was a lingering thought and fear of mine because I didn't understand how that would look

[00:35:30] What that relationship involved, what it meant

[00:35:33] All I really was concerned with in my little child like mine was like the sexual aspect

[00:35:38] So I was like oh I'm not going to know this man

[00:35:41] And then I'm going to all of a sudden after the first day

[00:35:44] Like you know just like you know sleep with him

[00:35:46] And so if felt too much too soon

[00:35:48] Given that I had no other understanding or insight into my interaction with the opposite sex

[00:35:56] I just thought if I studied a lot and if I didn't show much interest in pursuing the traditional side of

[00:36:03] You know what a woman could do like get married

[00:36:05] It wouldn't be something that I would need to follow up on

[00:36:09] And that's why you kept you know you were very studious and capture her

[00:36:13] Yes, yeah

[00:36:15] Yeah and then invariably like you know I became as you grow up

[00:36:20] You want to kind of meet somebody and then I didn't know where to start

[00:36:24] And I didn't know what I couldn't couldn't do

[00:36:28] I think also I had self-esteem issues

[00:36:30] You know I didn't like how I looked

[00:36:32] I was fat or chubby

[00:36:34] I'm not trying to be negative about fat people

[00:36:36] But personally I didn't feel great about how I looked I was a bit bigger

[00:36:41] Yeah, I think it's hard to love yourself and I think especially as an Asian person

[00:36:45] It isn't something that we're encouraged to do from a young age

[00:36:49] How was it eventually for you?

[00:36:51] So you didn't get an arranged marriage

[00:36:54] I met a bad boy unfortunately which is what I wanted

[00:36:59] But I wanted a bad boy to be a good boy as we all do and he wasn't

[00:37:04] You know once you get a bad boy

[00:37:07] You know I think there's a sometimes when you're young and stupid

[00:37:11] And you think that you have enough energy to change somebody

[00:37:14] But you don't know the world

[00:37:17] And I definitely saw a lot of the world through that toxic relationship

[00:37:21] And I spent a lot of time with this man

[00:37:24] Who didn't really want to give me what I wanted

[00:37:27] Which was commitment and stability

[00:37:29] And then it basically ended

[00:37:32] And yeah I took about that in the book a lot about the lessons I learned

[00:37:37] And how I needed to love myself more

[00:37:40] Because I think if I valued myself more

[00:37:42] Either I wouldn't have been in that relationship or I would have handled it a lot more differently

[00:37:47] And a bit more better towards what I needed and prioritized me instead of him

[00:37:54] My grandma would always say this to me

[00:37:56] And I don't think I understood it at the time

[00:37:58] But today I understand it

[00:38:00] The most important relationship you'll ever have is with yourself

[00:38:03] And I completely agree with that

[00:38:06] You often identify online from what I've read as being British Asian

[00:38:11] And at some point you say there's a constant inner battle inside me

[00:38:14] That I'm always trying to reconcile between these two parts

[00:38:17] I want to ask you why you use Asian instead of Indian

[00:38:22] Is this like a conscious decision you made or it just happened and why the terminology?

[00:38:28] Yeah, to be honest with you

[00:38:31] I feel like the descriptors that society expects of me

[00:38:36] I think obviously as a comedian you're trying to distinguish yourself

[00:38:39] So often the only reason I'm describing myself in these terms is

[00:38:44] Yeah it just gives a bit of background to who I am

[00:38:47] Otherwise I would not have to describe myself like white people don't have to say I'm a white comedian

[00:38:52] Or I'm a British comedian or I'm an English comedian

[00:38:55] So it is thing that non-white people feel like we have to do to be seen or to kind of...

[00:39:01] I don't know why we have to do it

[00:39:03] It's been a bit...

[00:39:04] My plan was to get famous enough where I could drop all of that

[00:39:07] But I'm not there yet, it's certainly not a choice

[00:39:10] Because I think people just don't get it

[00:39:12] So I just thought Asian was broad enough to kind of...

[00:39:15] I'm sure Indian fits in there somewhere

[00:39:17] But yeah

[00:39:18] Really didn't give it much thought

[00:39:20] It was something that as an early comedian you're asked to write a bio

[00:39:24] So I fill that in and then you just kind of use it over and over

[00:39:28] But as soon as I become more famous I will stop using it

[00:39:32] Would you change it right now if you could in a new way?

[00:39:36] I mean, if I didn't have to provide a bio or explain who I am

[00:39:40] Then yeah I would just say comedian

[00:39:42] I don't want people to talk to me about my identity

[00:39:45] If I'm honest with you even though I'm on a podcast where I'm talking about my identity

[00:39:49] But this is different

[00:39:50] I don't need to have that conversation with people

[00:39:52] Because I've had so many conversations with people about that

[00:39:56] And it's more about them than me

[00:39:59] So I probably would drop it to be honest with you

[00:40:01] But it helps sometimes because sometimes people feel like they need to tick a box

[00:40:06] In terms of diversity or whatever not

[00:40:09] But for real, like these conversations

[00:40:11] I can have them with people

[00:40:14] It satisfies their curiosity and we can move on

[00:40:17] I come at this from a completely different angle

[00:40:20] Where I find talking about culture absolutely fascinating

[00:40:25] And understanding why certain things evolved to be the way they are

[00:40:30] No one sat down by their or few people, I shouldn't say no one

[00:40:34] Sit down by their families and told like hey this is your culture

[00:40:37] This is how we do this and that

[00:40:39] It's just things that we observe that we experience

[00:40:41] It's a lot of classical conditioning

[00:40:43] I do it in stand-up

[00:40:45] Like I'm talking about a lot of observations in stand-up

[00:40:49] So I feel like because I'm doing it for my job

[00:40:52] I don't need to do it in my life as well

[00:40:55] And also literally I'm not lying

[00:40:58] When we spoke earlier

[00:41:00] If you just feel that we're at a point where

[00:41:02] I'm punching up, I'm a brown woman

[00:41:04] So I'm allowed to say stuff

[00:41:06] But other people like let's say white people

[00:41:08] They can't say stuff

[00:41:09] So it's a weird conversation because we're not on the same equal plane

[00:41:14] Even though I'm on a better end of that

[00:41:16] Because I'm allowed to say more

[00:41:18] If you're talking to people with their butt tight the whole time

[00:41:20] Because they can't say nothing

[00:41:22] That's not very interesting to me

[00:41:24] So if you're going to talk about it

[00:41:26] But it's not going to mean anything to anybody

[00:41:28] Or you're not going to change anything

[00:41:30] It's a bit frustrating

[00:41:31] Because people ask you where you're from

[00:41:33] But that's not what they really mean

[00:41:35] What they really mean is how did you get here?

[00:41:37] Why are you here?

[00:41:38] What do you think of this country?

[00:41:40] Like what do you think of us?

[00:41:41] What do you think of me?

[00:41:42] So there's a wider conversation

[00:41:44] But people just hide behind these types of kind of

[00:41:46] You know what I mean?

[00:41:47] Like we've had a really good conversation where

[00:41:49] It's been very deep

[00:41:51] People just aren't real

[00:41:52] And I think that's what's really frustrating for me

[00:41:54] Like if people are just real like

[00:41:55] I want to know why you're here or where you're from

[00:41:58] And then it's up to me whether I want to share it

[00:42:00] But like I think I just want people to be real

[00:42:02] And be true to themselves

[00:42:04] And like I don't want to be come along in somebody's fast

[00:42:07] Like I don't want to be part of someone else's pretence

[00:42:10] Like if they're just acting like they're not racist

[00:42:12] But they don't realise how racist they are

[00:42:14] I don't want to be a party to it

[00:42:15] Because I can see through it

[00:42:17] No, I understand that

[00:42:18] Because for people like us

[00:42:20] It's like all we're allowed to talk about is race

[00:42:23] What if we don't want to?

[00:42:25] Yeah, it's like

[00:42:26] I'm only going to get a deal

[00:42:27] If I'm able to talk about being a brown person

[00:42:30] Or being oppressed or oppressed or being Muslim

[00:42:33] Or being different

[00:42:35] Like I'm not different to me

[00:42:37] You know, who am I being different to?

[00:42:40] I'm the same I've always been

[00:42:42] As I've always been

[00:42:43] So I think it's just

[00:42:45] I would love things to move on

[00:42:47] And it just feels like we're in a place where

[00:42:50] Sometimes doesn't feel like that's a possibility

[00:42:54] I've heard this before

[00:42:56] That all brown people and black people

[00:42:59] People of colour are allowed to talk about

[00:43:01] Are there struggles

[00:43:02] And so I've questioned myself about this before

[00:43:05] Maybe it's because I didn't

[00:43:06] And you don't have to

[00:43:08] You don't have to

[00:43:09] Because you just explained it that you really enjoy it

[00:43:11] It's helpful to you and it enriches you

[00:43:14] What I'm saying is it doesn't feel like it's a choice

[00:43:17] It feels as though it's an obligation

[00:43:19] Yeah, no, I hear you on that

[00:43:21] I think maybe it's because

[00:43:23] I didn't predominantly grow up in the West

[00:43:25] I grew up in Egypt

[00:43:26] That I moved back to France when I was an adult

[00:43:29] And I feel like there wasn't this conversation

[00:43:33] About being a person of colour

[00:43:35] And then all of a sudden

[00:43:37] I don't know if you guys use it in the UK by-pop

[00:43:39] You do, right? Like back in the journalist people of colour

[00:43:41] That was everywhere

[00:43:43] And in the Middle East, no one's talking about that

[00:43:45] Because we're all people of colour

[00:43:47] I think that's just what it is

[00:43:49] And I find that there is an obsession

[00:43:51] In a lot of Western media to talk about these issues

[00:43:54] Like all the time

[00:43:55] But always from the same lens

[00:43:57] Of discrimination, racism, words, and vantages

[00:44:01] Whereas no one's talking about

[00:44:03] What can we bring to the table that's different?

[00:44:06] But we're not allowed to

[00:44:07] Even if we have other things

[00:44:09] That we can bring to the table that are different

[00:44:11] They only want that one version of us

[00:44:14] Yeah, that's problematic

[00:44:16] That's really problematic

[00:44:17] Because I think

[00:44:18] If you were up in a household that has

[00:44:21] More than one culture

[00:44:22] No matter what the culture is

[00:44:23] That's a richness

[00:44:25] That's a richness to be able to understand

[00:44:27] And have a foot in several different cultures, languages, religions

[00:44:31] And people often see it as a threat

[00:44:34] Or I don't know why

[00:44:36] But people have this fear of like

[00:44:37] Oh, you're trying to change us all

[00:44:40] Or change society

[00:44:41] Or convert us all

[00:44:42] It's like no, I do me, you do you

[00:44:44] And there isn't enough space to just be

[00:44:47] I find

[00:44:48] So I don't know

[00:44:51] But I mean like for me in between

[00:44:53] Is she's about talking about identity

[00:44:55] And identity crisis

[00:44:57] That is very, very common with people

[00:44:59] Who come from different cultures

[00:45:01] Because you've had to

[00:45:03] Reconcile different worlds

[00:45:05] I think it's important

[00:45:07] To call the things that we've not been able

[00:45:09] To put words to for so long for real

[00:45:12] For so long

[00:45:13] Like people from cross cultures

[00:45:15] Had to just kind of go along

[00:45:17] With the situation that they're in

[00:45:19] And not be able to talk about it

[00:45:21] So it's definitely healthy

[00:45:23] And helpful to be able to feel like

[00:45:25] Actually, I'm not the only one

[00:45:27] That had this kind of confusing

[00:45:29] Or conflicted experiences in aspects of my life

[00:45:33] One thing that I always like to remember in these conversations

[00:45:38] Is the majority of us at some point

[00:45:41] In our heritage and our lineage

[00:45:43] Have been mixed at some point

[00:45:46] Unless your indigenous

[00:45:47] Everyone in the US is

[00:45:49] Comes from an immigrant background

[00:45:51] That's just the reality

[00:45:53] They all moved there

[00:45:55] They weren't from there

[00:45:57] Unless you were Indigenous

[00:45:59] Your heritage isn't from the US

[00:46:01] I don't know how similar is to American

[00:46:03] But I think with a British side of thing

[00:46:05] It's very much about maintaining

[00:46:07] What a British identity is

[00:46:09] And it's really funny

[00:46:11] Because nobody can actually tell you what that is

[00:46:13] They can only tell you what it's not

[00:46:15] And they can only tell you how important it is to have these British values

[00:46:19] I think it's a lack of being able to preserve

[00:46:23] What they want to preserve

[00:46:25] I think that's not on us

[00:46:27] And I think that's on them

[00:46:29] In terms of trying to maintain

[00:46:31] What it is that they want to maintain

[00:46:33] Like nobody's stopping them

[00:46:35] In terms of the different cultures, religions, and groups that you identify with

[00:46:41] Where have you felt the most belonging

[00:46:43] Where have you felt the most belonging

[00:46:45] Oh, that's really hard

[00:46:47] Oh my god

[00:46:49] I'd like to say nowhere

[00:46:51] And that's really sad

[00:46:53] But I'm going to be honest

[00:46:55] I'm really lucky

[00:46:57] My co-host of my podcast

[00:46:59] On BBC Sound School

[00:47:01] No Country For Young Women

[00:47:03] My friend Monty

[00:47:05] I felt a lot of belonging with her

[00:47:07] Because she's been really nice to me

[00:47:09] She's like family but she's my friend

[00:47:11] And the only podcast in between is that

[00:47:13] Sometimes we have to really like

[00:47:15] Be different versions of ourselves

[00:47:17] Depending on who we're with

[00:47:19] So you know, with our family

[00:47:21] We have to be one way

[00:47:23] With our friends something else

[00:47:25] And with work something else

[00:47:27] With friends or lovers something else

[00:47:29] And so belonging

[00:47:31] A loose sort of fact that you can be who you are

[00:47:33] And I think

[00:47:35] Really really with the exception of Monty

[00:47:37] Like I've not been able to really

[00:47:39] Celebrate that in any one environment

[00:47:41] Because I haven't unfortunately

[00:47:43] Really found a sense of belonging anywhere

[00:47:47] Really

[00:47:49] I'm curious to know if you felt the sense of belonging with Monty

[00:47:51] Who's wonderful by the way

[00:47:53] I love hearing the two of you on the podcast

[00:47:55] Before you started the podcast

[00:47:57] Or after the podcast

[00:47:59] I would say before

[00:48:01] Because like our friendship was very easy

[00:48:05] Like even though we only met at work

[00:48:07] And in later

[00:48:09] Not in later life

[00:48:11] But in like you know, we were growing up kind of thing

[00:48:13] But she was just really friendly

[00:48:15] Easy to talk to you very open

[00:48:17] Very understanding very accepting

[00:48:19] But other than that

[00:48:21] Like I don't really feel like

[00:48:23] Accepted as a whole

[00:48:25] In any aspect of my life

[00:48:27] You know, like I feel like

[00:48:29] I have to deliver what is expected of me

[00:48:31] And that's just how it is

[00:48:33] Yeah, I can relate to that

[00:48:35] I feel very much the same way

[00:48:37] I have often questioned if belonging

[00:48:39] True belonging even exist

[00:48:41] Or if it's just this elusive unicorn

[00:48:43] And I don't have an answer to that

[00:48:45] I really don't know

[00:48:47] I think

[00:48:49] I think it does

[00:48:51] I mean maybe I'm wrong

[00:48:53] But I'm just looking at other people's experience

[00:48:55] And it doesn't look like they've had

[00:48:57] Such a sense of lack of belonging

[00:48:59] And that maybe my circumstances were quite different

[00:49:01] Sometimes I think it has to do with

[00:49:03] Like as a society

[00:49:05] We've kind of lost

[00:49:07] The importance of community

[00:49:09] We don't know how to create it

[00:49:11] We don't know how to

[00:49:13] In a healthy way

[00:49:15] We don't know how to create it

[00:49:17] We don't know how to accept people fully

[00:49:19] It's part of the conversation we were having earlier

[00:49:21] Of like you know, we're so quick to call people out for

[00:49:23] X, Y and Z

[00:49:25] So the second you show any signs that

[00:49:27] You're a little bit different

[00:49:29] People get a bit uncomfortable

[00:49:31] Different and we're all a result of our own upbringing

[00:49:33] And everything we've been through

[00:49:35] The good, the bad and the ugly

[00:49:37] And like that's just who we are

[00:49:43] So now we're getting to the untranslatable word

[00:49:45] So on the in-betweeners we have this tradition

[00:49:47] At the end of the podcast

[00:49:49] Where I asked the guest a word

[00:49:51] In one of the languages you speak that doesn't translate into English

[00:49:55] Okay, I'm really excited

[00:49:57] Can you put a drum roll in now?

[00:50:01] So the phrase I've chosen is

[00:50:03] Jeterro

[00:50:05] And what Jeterro means

[00:50:07] Is basically it means keep living

[00:50:09] Hmm

[00:50:11] And I think it's a stupid saying really

[00:50:13] But I think that's my own ignorance

[00:50:15] But it's a funny thing to say

[00:50:17] For me because like obviously

[00:50:19] On the one hand you assume

[00:50:21] That people do want to keep living anyways

[00:50:23] It's like stating the obvious

[00:50:25] But also I do think that

[00:50:27] There's something really nice about it

[00:50:29] Normally like a father figure

[00:50:31] Or an older person

[00:50:33] Telling a younger person

[00:50:35] Usually a woman

[00:50:37] Let put in their hand on her forehead

[00:50:39] And it's almost like said we've love

[00:50:41] And a blessing type of sense

[00:50:43] Like Jeterro

[00:50:45] It's almost like I think a celebration of like

[00:50:47] Be happy

[00:50:49] It's kind of annoying that someone has to tell you to keep living

[00:50:51] But it's not meant in that way

[00:50:53] It's meant to be like

[00:50:55] Basically keep prospering

[00:50:57] That's how I've kind of interpreted it

[00:50:58] I guess it's kind of like an expression of love in a way

[00:51:00] And I think on one hand

[00:51:02] Like I'm from East London so I'm a bit get out anyway

[00:51:04] It feels a bit like gangster to me

[00:51:06] Like keep living

[00:51:08] That feels like a raps on that needs to be made

[00:51:10] Like Jeterro

[00:51:12] Jeterro anyway

[00:51:28] And original music is composed and produced by Malik and Macydi

[00:51:32] I love hearing from our listeners

[00:51:34] So feel free to reach out to me anytime

[00:51:36] Join us every other Tuesday

[00:51:38] And remember

[00:51:40] The quest for belonging never ends

[00:51:42] And you are not alone

[00:51:44] Keep exploring, keep embracing

[00:51:46] And keep celebrating that in-betweenish life