can we talk about taboos? — with Amuna pt. 2

[00:00:00] This is a place where we talk about belonging Welcome to the inbetweenish I'm Beatriz Nour your host

[00:00:10] Raised in three cultures, two religions and four languages Trust me I get the chaos

[00:00:17] On the show I chat with those who have lived that inbetweenish life A foot here and a foot there Building bridges across cultures and of course the age old quest to finding home

[00:00:31] This is part two of my conversation with Amuna Wagner

[00:00:35] If you haven't heard part one yet then I highly recommend you go back and tune into that before listening to this episode because it'll make a lot more sense

[00:00:44] Amuna is a multicultural cross-cultural kid of mixed heritage

[00:00:50] She's a creative who wears many hats, writer, journalist and filmmaker

[00:00:55] Where she explores the ways through which we heal ourselves and others

[00:01:00] Links to her work, her social media and her online publication Candaca can be found in the show notes below

[00:01:07] Last episode we learn about Amuna's heritage from her grandparents to her parents, her family history, and how her family belongs to the three Abrahamic religions

[00:01:18] Today we will dive into her own story from growing up as a mixed child to a white German mother and a black Sudanese father

[00:01:27] We'll explore queerness and her understanding of queerness

[00:01:31] We take a very interesting turn into the topic of taboos

[00:01:35] And Amuna also shares her views on the nuance between religion and faith

[00:01:41] So let's get right into it

[00:01:45] In your household grown up with your parents were both of their cultures present?

[00:01:52] In my life in general German culture is much more dominant than Sudanese culture

[00:01:58] I think that has a few reasons. First of all the mother's culture is usually more prominent

[00:02:04] But then also I live in Germany so naturally I am surrounded by it

[00:02:09] Germany has always been my home in Germany is my mother tongue literally my first language

[00:02:14] Because my dad has all of his morals and values and he assumes that they are just genetically inherited

[00:02:21] So whenever I do say something that doesn't align, he's so disappointed

[00:02:26] And I'm just always so exasperated

[00:02:30] But like how can you be disappointed? You never shared this with me

[00:02:34] And you didn't raise me to be like this

[00:02:36] And he used to speak Arabic with me I used to speak Arabic until I was five

[00:02:41] And then he kind of learned German through me and I left the Arabic speaking world slowly

[00:02:47] I had both at home but then outside I had much more German influence

[00:02:52] When I was I think in year five

[00:02:55] And I was studying English and Latin my dad decided that now he wants me to study Arabic

[00:03:01] And he thought that he's going to send me now to this Arabic Quran school every Saturday

[00:03:06] And obviously I really don't want to go because that was not what I was interested at the time

[00:03:11] And he was so disappointed, like I'm rejecting his culture

[00:03:14] So every now and then he has these half attempts that are very short-lived

[00:03:19] For some point he went to Egypt and he bought so many primary school books for Egyptian kids

[00:03:25] And then he expected me to just in my own time work through them as a German primary school child

[00:03:32] Which of course I didn't do so yeah

[00:03:35] I feel like in general German was much more prevalent but I noticed my student is so

[00:03:40] Again when there are triggers for example when I'm in Egypt

[00:03:43] I feel like it's very easy for me to fit in because I also lived with my student is aren't for a while in Egypt?

[00:03:50] No in England but in a very Sudanese household which is nearly the same as in Egyptian household

[00:03:56] So when I step into an Egyptian household it feels very much like my aunt's house

[00:04:01] So then I noticed it much more

[00:04:04] You did learn Arabic later right?

[00:04:07] Yeah I went and studied there at university

[00:04:10] Did that make you feel closer to your Sudanese side?

[00:04:14] Yeah a lot

[00:04:15] And also to my dad

[00:04:16] And I think in general you were saying you're interested in intercultural dating and so on

[00:04:22] Or like relationships I think language is the key

[00:04:26] Since I studied Arabic I think I know language is for sure the key

[00:04:30] Because growing up I remember my parents speaking to each other in English

[00:04:34] And then I kind of went to a German and yeah my mom studied a bit of Arabic but then she also stopped

[00:04:40] And it's not like she speaks or understands it

[00:04:44] And my parents just have constant misunderstandings

[00:04:48] And also just the way that different cultures speak

[00:04:53] Sudanese people are just not as direct as German people so he's not trying to avoid her question

[00:04:59] You know this is just how he answers it in his brain

[00:05:02] And my mom is like you're not answering my question

[00:05:05] You don't want to answer my question, you have something to hide

[00:05:08] You know studying Arabic really made me understand my dad

[00:05:12] And then because I also studied a lot of translation

[00:05:15] And I studied it in English so anytime I spoke to somebody German about it

[00:05:20] I had to do that like three times translation

[00:05:24] I realized that so much gets lost

[00:05:27] And the way different cultures speak

[00:05:29] If you can love someone and really have a strong connection

[00:05:32] But if you just don't understand where they're coming from with their words

[00:05:36] I think it's so difficult to have a good relationship

[00:05:40] I completely agree with that honestly, couldn't agree anymore

[00:05:46] I think it's also about the nuances of how people of that culture and language communicate

[00:05:51] Your mom is coming from like a German cultural side or father is coming from a Sudanese cultural side

[00:05:57] So the way they communicate in English will bring in those cultural influences

[00:06:02] But I agree that language is so important

[00:06:06] And no matter how much you try to like suppress your family of origin or your culture of origin

[00:06:12] I think it comes back

[00:06:14] The later in life we depend a lot on the things that we were

[00:06:17] At least that's been my observation, both with my parents and my grandma as well

[00:06:22] You fall back on what you know

[00:06:24] And I think it happens very subtly and very on a very subconscious level

[00:06:28] But I think it happens

[00:06:30] I don't know if that's been your observation with your parents, but that's definitely been my observation

[00:06:36] I think yeah, my mom for sure, it's like her version of that was becoming German

[00:06:43] And then my dad or my dad's family

[00:06:46] I think it's a very stereotypical Muslim thing

[00:06:50] That as they get older they become more religious

[00:06:54] My dad hasn't been to Sudan in 30 years

[00:06:58] And next week is the first time he's going to fly back

[00:07:03] Oh wow! But now that he's worth 57 or something, he's like actually maybe I don't want to be done

[00:07:11] Maybe I do see why believing is not enough and I should practice

[00:07:17] Or maybe I do see the reason why I should go back to Sudan and it's important to keep this connection

[00:07:23] I'm so curious to read about, okay I'm sure you'll write about it

[00:07:28] Your father's experience is going back to Sudan after 30 years

[00:07:33] Me too, but he's not taking me

[00:07:35] Oh, I would love to go with him but he doesn't want me to come

[00:07:39] So I guess I'll depend on everybody's stories

[00:07:43] But I'll collect them once they're there to collect

[00:07:47] Your parents being an interracial couple were a bit ostracized from like German society

[00:07:57] Or, should I say white German society perhaps

[00:08:01] And so you grew up in a community surrounded by a lot of other interracial couples or families

[00:08:10] Tell me a little bit more about that experience

[00:08:14] It was really nice, I honestly had a great time growing up

[00:08:19] And it is actually very much dependent on an area

[00:08:23] I mean some people lived elsewhere but I was walking with Maliq and I was like

[00:08:29] And every student like this is where my family grew up

[00:08:32] And they're all black Germans and they're all like in all the directions

[00:08:37] But just one street removed

[00:08:39] It was just stressful to then face the real world

[00:08:45] And also I think I really romanticized it until I was much, much older

[00:08:51] And I understood the privilege of it because it sounds very cool to have us

[00:08:56] But at the end of the day it was white middle class mothers and black fathers

[00:09:03] And so the kids grew up speaking perfect German, feeling very at home in German culture

[00:09:10] Until German culture stopped making us belong home

[00:09:14] And also we all went to very good schools, had really great education

[00:09:19] So we're those kind of black people, the black European people that are very privileged

[00:09:26] And so I think most of us went through this process of thinking with the norm

[00:09:33] Because we grew up around each other

[00:09:35] So then going to secondary school, which in Germany we have three kinds of secondary schools

[00:09:42] It's very classic basically if your parents are foreigners

[00:09:46] Or if you don't come from an academic family

[00:09:49] You are very likely not gonna have the support to go to like a higher

[00:09:55] secondary school

[00:09:57] And so a black person or the child of an immigrant is not very likely to make it into that school

[00:10:05] Unless one of their parents is white and knows that system

[00:10:09] And so those schools are also specialised

[00:10:14] So even though maybe we all went to the same primary school because we live in the same neighbourhood

[00:10:19] We were gonna go to different schools

[00:10:21] And then we went to the music and art school

[00:10:24] And the entire school had eight black kids across all their years

[00:10:30] And so that was really, really a shock

[00:10:33] And I think they had like two kids that had some Turkish parents

[00:10:40] But they were probably also German but you know like me

[00:10:44] And then maybe some Eastern European kids that looked exactly like the German kids

[00:10:49] I wouldn't even know who they were

[00:10:51] And that was it, it was incredibly undiverse

[00:10:54] And so I think that happened to most of us, depending on the schools we went to

[00:10:59] And so suddenly we're really the minority and really shocked

[00:11:03] And we realised that we're black

[00:11:05] You go to all of your schoolmates' houses

[00:11:08] And it's just white German people

[00:11:11] And they eat very different food and they have completely different family rituals

[00:11:16] And so on

[00:11:17] And you realise that your own household is very strange

[00:11:20] And the white people come over and they find like a black parent

[00:11:24] And like strange spices and weird things hanging on the wall

[00:11:28] And it was like a whole shock for everybody

[00:11:31] And so I think we really felt so different

[00:11:36] But then again going to university

[00:11:40] Or not all of us went to university but just getting older

[00:11:43] And meeting other people and then black lives matter happened

[00:11:47] We realised that we are still very privileged to have gone through all of that

[00:11:52] And most kids that are black but both of their parents came as foreigners

[00:11:59] They probably didn't get to go to these kind of schools

[00:12:02] And you know, and then we learned about colorism

[00:12:05] And so I think we went through a second shock

[00:12:08] Where we again had to adjust where we are in society

[00:12:12] And kind of had to take ourselves a bit out of that marginalised position

[00:12:18] Out of that oppressed position and realise that

[00:12:21] Depending on who your parents are, you can still be very privileged

[00:12:25] Even though that doesn't mean they're not black

[00:12:28] So I think we went through like a few stages in our lives

[00:12:33] And a lot of us are still figuring it out

[00:12:36] But it really went like a roller coaster

[00:12:40] And now we find ourselves somewhere in the middle

[00:12:45] And I think a very specific identity, very different to other black European identities

[00:12:52] In 2020 you directed and produced this documentary, Shivaat

[00:12:57] I hope I see it correctly

[00:12:59] Yeah, it's a Q-Axand

[00:13:02] I don't see German at all

[00:13:06] So the term means black in German

[00:13:09] And it is a documentary very aptly named that captures the black German conversations around being black German

[00:13:16] At some point in the documentary you feature a poem by Mei Aim

[00:13:21] And it says, I will still be African even if you want me to be German

[00:13:26] And I will be German even if my blackness does not suit you

[00:13:29] Where do you stand on this discussion?

[00:13:33] The film I made in 2020 when the black lives matter protests were sweeping across Europe

[00:13:42] And triggering so many identity crises

[00:13:45] And they were very different because in France or the UK they have huge black communities

[00:13:53] And they have an identity, so the black French or black British

[00:13:58] But then in Germany you don't really say black German, you'll say German Sudanese or German Ghanaian

[00:14:06] You know, you have to specify because we are not really a community

[00:14:11] And at that point I was here because it was the pandemic here as an Olympic

[00:14:18] But I hadn't really lived here in a long time

[00:14:20] And I had forgotten that I had grown up with all of these black kids

[00:14:24] Because I hadn't seen them in a long time

[00:14:26] And we never used to meet as a group who just met individually

[00:14:30] And it didn't really feel like we're a community

[00:14:33] And so I felt very alone

[00:14:35] And I did a lot of research and I found Mei Aim

[00:14:39] Who is a legend

[00:14:42] And I watched the film, Audrey Lodz, The Berlin Years

[00:14:46] And I found out that there had been an Afro German movement

[00:14:50] A few decades ago that none of us seemed to know about

[00:14:54] And that they had found a term for themselves, Afro German

[00:14:59] But they had coins and they had research their history

[00:15:02] And it was very feminist and very queer and very cool

[00:15:06] And nobody knew about it

[00:15:08] And so I was wondering how come

[00:15:10] And where did all of that go, that movement

[00:15:15] And so I also realized that I had a lot of questions that I didn't know how to answer

[00:15:20] For example, what makes us black?

[00:15:22] And do I feel part of this country or not

[00:15:25] And so I just reached out to the people that I had grown up with

[00:15:29] And I invited them to come over to buy rose cards in

[00:15:33] And I didn't even know yet that I was going to make a film

[00:15:36] I just wanted to

[00:15:38] Ooh, I think I lost you

[00:15:40] There are trees

[00:15:43] Yeah, at this point we lost connection during our recording

[00:15:47] But I wanted to break the fourth wall and speak directly to you who is listening right now

[00:15:52] I watched this short documentary and I highly, highly recommend you watch it too

[00:15:57] It is fully in German but it does provide English subtitles throughout

[00:16:03] And even me as a non-German speaker I was able to pick up some words

[00:16:07] Just thanks to the similarities between English and German

[00:16:11] But it was fascinating to listen to different black and mixed German experiences

[00:16:18] And trace a bit of history through the poems and the activists

[00:16:23] However, this documentary is not publicly available at the moment

[00:16:27] So if you are interested in watching it

[00:16:29] I recommend you get in touch with Emona directly through the Lincoln bio

[00:16:33] Either through her Instagram or through the email on Kandaka

[00:16:38] And she will share the link so that you can watch it

[00:16:43] Okay, back to the recording now

[00:16:47] Earlier we mentioned taboo

[00:16:49] And you wanted to elaborate on your thoughts on taboo subjects

[00:16:55] Well, let me elaborate on my passionate hate towards taboo

[00:17:03] I think taboo is killer slowly because there's nothing more oppressive than silencing

[00:17:10] Taboo is to me a lot like culture

[00:17:13] And I think again actually about this a lot in terms of dating somebody from a different culture

[00:17:19] Because my partner's Egyptian

[00:17:21] And even though I'm still in me, I'm also very German

[00:17:24] And I noticed that things that make sense to one person and the entire family

[00:17:30] Doesn't make sense to another person

[00:17:33] And the second that one person doesn't believe in this cultural construct

[00:17:39] It crumbles completely

[00:17:41] And so culture like taboo is dependent on everybody's agreement or everybody's silence

[00:17:47] But then as soon as one person starts talking about it

[00:17:50] Everybody else also starts talking about it

[00:17:52] Like the me too movement is a great example

[00:17:55] But I think in general there's no use in ever keeping things a taboo

[00:18:01] And this also relates back to my crisis about my book

[00:18:05] Because so many people in my family they don't want me to write down these things

[00:18:10] Because they have this approach of only remembering the good

[00:18:15] And so they are great storytellers but they only tell funny stories

[00:18:19] And they believe that if you just don't tell a sad story long enough, it kind of disappears

[00:18:25] Which I don't believe because I think it just gets stuck in your bones and you inherit it to your kids

[00:18:31] So and I guess also being of Jewish heritage is so obvious

[00:18:34] Because the first generation that survived the Holocaust never talked about it

[00:18:38] And so the kids are super confused and depressed

[00:18:41] And it just kind of goes from generation to generation

[00:18:44] And it becomes this genetic trauma

[00:18:47] And so I believe that taboo is the first step to creating bigger problems and giving people more pain

[00:18:54] More than any discomfort could be and talking about something that right now feels uncomfortable

[00:19:00] I had never heard that before

[00:19:06] That taboo's like even the concept of having taboo is so oppressive

[00:19:12] But the second you said it, I'm like yes, that's so true

[00:19:16] I see that, you know

[00:19:19] Saying that your family they're very good storytellers

[00:19:22] But they're all like funny stories

[00:19:25] I don't know which side of the family you're talking about maybe it's both sides of the family

[00:19:29] Well, I was assuming

[00:19:32] Is Sudanese and Egyptian culture have a lot in common

[00:19:35] And Egyptians use humor as a coping mechanism to deal with

[00:19:41] What I love about them

[00:19:44] It's interesting how even humor is culturally relevant and dependent

[00:19:51] But trauma is kind of like passed down through generations

[00:19:57] You're talking about the Holocaust

[00:19:59] Maybe you're also talking about your father's side as a family, I'm not sure

[00:20:03] But that's very interesting because there are actually studies now

[00:20:07] That do show that trauma can be passed down through generations

[00:20:12] Like it's literally a neurogenetic makeup

[00:20:14] And I find that fascinating

[00:20:16] It definitely wasn't something we learned when we were in, when I was in school

[00:20:20] First of all, we never talked about trauma

[00:20:22] We thought for a bit

[00:20:24] But the way through like through these topics is to actually address it

[00:20:29] Not like sweep it under the rug because there's only so much sweeping you can do, you know

[00:20:34] Yeah, yeah, so I think that's that's why there there should be no taboos

[00:20:39] And I try to follow that advice because even I move in a very

[00:20:44] And a lot of people would call it radical feminist queer world

[00:20:49] Where people really talk about everything

[00:20:51] And they will talk about all the sex, kink, fetish, everything

[00:20:57] They will share their porn on their Instagram

[00:21:01] And it's really out there which is a tabo that I also grew up with

[00:21:05] And they don't find it awkward

[00:21:08] And so it doesn't feel awkward because when people talk about things

[00:21:13] Because they want to and they're comfortable doing it

[00:21:17] And then everybody else is comfortable

[00:21:19] And so I feel like the taboos that you grow up especially in an Arab or Muslim community

[00:21:25] Compared to that are so small

[00:21:27] Or the taboos that my Sudanese family wants to put on my writing are so small

[00:21:33] Compared to other taboos that I just feel like I just have to be the one that breaks

[00:21:38] Even though they're going to be so observant

[00:21:40] And I also feel like taboos have a way of triggering shame

[00:21:44] Within everybody who has to follow this tabo

[00:21:47] For example, we have a case of domestic violence

[00:21:50] Then you don't talk about somebody who's being violent

[00:21:53] Because you kind of feel ashamed

[00:21:55] And so the people that have to endure it and have to keep the silence also now feel ashamed

[00:22:01] And so I feel like taboos are just the first step to so many other things that we associate with it

[00:22:07] And then becomes this huge thing

[00:22:09] And if we avoid them, we also avoid all of these other things there

[00:22:13] We think are synonymous with taboos but are really just consequences of it

[00:22:19] And so I feel like that's the problem

[00:22:24] So today you feel like you know, you want to address even things that are deemed by others taboos

[00:22:30] But you don't see them as taboos

[00:22:32] Is there anything at some point in your personal history that you felt was a taboos when you had to overcome that shame of talking about it?

[00:22:41] Yeah, a lot of things

[00:22:43] I think and also still I'm still overcoming them because I still don't feel comfortable

[00:22:47] Maybe not directly experienced but indirectly experienced a lot of domestic violence in my family

[00:22:53] Not even nobody talks about it, but it's just so normalized

[00:22:57] And so the new culture is very very accepted for men to beat their women or children

[00:23:04] They're women, I even say they won't beat women

[00:23:06] Cut them there and children

[00:23:09] And it's not even the taboos that you can't talk about it

[00:23:13] It's the taboos that you can't criticize it

[00:23:16] And also living with the repercussions of that because hurt people, hurt people and so it goes on and on and on

[00:23:23] I'm not talking about my dad who was not at all a violent person

[00:23:27] So I don't want to be misunderstood

[00:23:29] I'm talking about observing men in my family in general

[00:23:33] I'm not only my family in just society in general

[00:23:37] So I think that's and then like small taboos like being hairy or like things that were really huge as teenagers

[00:23:47] Or in times where the internet didn't show us all kinds of bodies

[00:23:51] I feel like my biggest problem even probably scrolling down Kandaka is having a hairy body

[00:23:58] And now that's really my most non-existent problem in my life

[00:24:02] Are there other taboos that you are processing? I don't know, is that the right term?

[00:24:12] Actually that is the right term

[00:24:14] There's a huge difference in saying I don't think taboos are useful and not having any taboos

[00:24:22] Because of how we socialize

[00:24:24] It's something that I always notice moving between different cultures, how other people shame and still shame

[00:24:33] So I can walk nearly naked in Europe, I really don't care

[00:24:39] But then if I show a bit too much body and for example Egypt or I don't even have to be there

[00:24:46] I just have to be in like a room full of sitting these people

[00:24:49] Then I start feeling very uncomfortable because that shame also touches me

[00:24:54] And so I feel like there's a huge difference in saying I'm comfortable talking about anything

[00:25:00] Or with somebody who is also comfortable hearing everything and talking about anything

[00:25:06] Or me talking to you about something that you really find super awkward to hear

[00:25:11] And then I will also find it okay

[00:25:13] So I'm not saying this so that everybody goes out and talks about over taboos

[00:25:17] And if they don't do it then they have to be more pressive or whatever

[00:25:20] I don't want that to be misunderstood

[00:25:23] And I think processing taboos is a much better way to frame it

[00:25:27] Because I guess the first thing that we have to practice is to remember that

[00:25:32] There shouldn't be any taboos and an idea of world we won't have any

[00:25:36] And then think about the ones we have

[00:25:38] And how we can slowly free ourselves from that

[00:25:41] Then there's desire

[00:25:44] There is just anything that we feel insecure about

[00:25:48] I feel like insecurities are huge taboos because they're such a need to always be confident

[00:25:54] Especially in the world of social media

[00:25:57] That's for example something I don't do

[00:25:59] My social media is very selective moment of joy

[00:26:05] Yeah and I feel like also any kind of illness or health issues

[00:26:10] Maybe that's not something that I really personally am processing

[00:26:15] But a lot of people around me and again there's an assumption that that's a bigger problem in like Arab or African societies

[00:26:23] But I feel like it's a huge issue also in Germany

[00:26:27] People can't talk about it

[00:26:29] And it's such a taboo...

[00:26:31] Yeah, to talk about anything mental health related or overexertion or burnout or fears or depression

[00:26:38] And so even if it's not a person themselves experiencing it but somebody close to them

[00:26:44] There's such a taboos to even share that

[00:26:46] And so it becomes your problem too

[00:26:48] If you're living with someone that has this...

[00:26:51] Has any sort of mental health issue or physical health issue

[00:26:56] Or if it's something in your family

[00:26:58] I feel like there's such a huge taboos in compasses everyone that's close to this person

[00:27:04] I remember I used to have...

[00:27:06] So I went to music school

[00:27:08] And when I was 13, I had so many issues with my voice

[00:27:12] And so I went to a speech therapist

[00:27:15] And at some point she thought that it's something psychological, like manifesting here

[00:27:21] And so she wanted to send me to a therapist and my dad

[00:27:24] Oh my god, he did not accept it

[00:27:27] But my parents were so scared I think that somebody was implying that they were not good parents

[00:27:33] That their child was having mental problems because of them or something

[00:27:37] That he just completely shut it down

[00:27:40] And I was so ready, I was like, oh she said that, okay let me go

[00:27:44] Maybe I'll find out what's wrong or is my voice always struggling

[00:27:50] But then I never got that chance

[00:27:52] And I feel like today it still would be the same if I took to my dad about it

[00:27:56] I don't think anything would have changed

[00:27:59] It's so interesting because there's so much of your story that I resonate with

[00:28:03] This whole discussion around taboos

[00:28:05] And it's one of the reasons why I wanted to start in between us actually

[00:28:08] Was to kind of like be able to also talk about these things

[00:28:11] And destigmatize things

[00:28:13] And talk about the things that make you uncomfortable

[00:28:16] Because I think there's a lot of growth and connection that comes through vulnerability

[00:28:20] Vulnerability is something that is...

[00:28:22] Lots of cases frowned upon

[00:28:24] And ensuing as weakness

[00:28:27] And seeing as weakness

[00:28:28] Even though I personally see this

[00:28:30] The complete opposite of that

[00:28:32] It takes a lot of courage and a lot of strength to be vulnerable

[00:28:35] And not even just to speak about this with other people

[00:28:38] But to even allow yourself to go there

[00:28:41] Because these are uncomfortable places

[00:28:43] Yeah

[00:28:44] And it's very difficult to do this against your environment

[00:28:48] So you can have a bubble with your best friends

[00:28:51] And talk about everything

[00:28:53] But then are you gonna be able to stand under the gaze of your disappointed family

[00:28:59] That's the whole other thing

[00:29:01] Yeah, absolutely

[00:29:03] I completely agree with that

[00:29:06] Your household

[00:29:09] With your family

[00:29:10] Were you raised in an interfaith household

[00:29:12] Or was it more Muslim dominant?

[00:29:15] No, not at all

[00:29:17] I was raised in an interfaith household

[00:29:20] That was in general not very religious

[00:29:23] So my mom believes

[00:29:27] But she doesn't subscribe to any religion

[00:29:30] And my dad believes

[00:29:32] But he doesn't need to share his belief with anyone

[00:29:36] I grew up reading the child Bible in the child Torah

[00:29:40] And the child Quran

[00:29:42] And I went to a Catholic kindergarten

[00:29:45] And so every Wednesday we went to church

[00:29:48] Then we would do the whole service for children

[00:29:51] And then you go to the priest

[00:29:54] And the priest will either give you the body of Jesus to eat

[00:29:58] And some grape juice

[00:30:00] Or if you're not Catholic

[00:30:02] The priest will just make a cross on your forehead

[00:30:05] Like, you're not Catholic but I bless you

[00:30:07] So every week I just got the cross

[00:30:10] And I really wanted the body of Jesus

[00:30:13] The bread

[00:30:14] And so I just always felt like

[00:30:16] It's nice to be here but I really don't belong

[00:30:18] They don't even give me food

[00:30:20] They just gave me their cross on my forehead

[00:30:23] So I grew up with a lot of Christianity but I never felt Christian

[00:30:27] And then there's this story of my dad taking me to the mosque

[00:30:31] And people taking off their shoes

[00:30:33] Because that's what you do at the mosque

[00:30:35] And I'm saying why?

[00:30:37] Why are they taking off their shoes?

[00:30:39] Their feet smell so bad

[00:30:40] And so my dad didn't want to take me again

[00:30:43] And then anytime I went to the synagogue

[00:30:46] It just felt like a museum

[00:30:48] Because you go and then there's this history and that history

[00:30:52] And it's just like a museum

[00:30:54] I never felt like I'm in God's house

[00:30:57] And when I went to the synagogue

[00:30:59] So I wasn't touched with all of it

[00:31:01] But I don't think I had a spiritual connection with any of it

[00:31:04] Who would take you to church?

[00:31:06] My mom. My mom likes to go to church

[00:31:09] I mean, now she doesn't anymore but by then she did

[00:31:11] So your mom would take you to the church and the synagogue?

[00:31:14] My aunt. So I have out of my aunt's

[00:31:17] This is the only one that made the effort to efficiently become Jewish

[00:31:22] So even though she's always considered herself Jewish

[00:31:24] She had to go through the whole

[00:31:25] And the Jewish process, the long process

[00:31:28] What about today as an adult?

[00:31:31] How do you view your religious beliefs?

[00:31:35] It's really difficult

[00:31:38] I don't know to be honest

[00:31:41] I feel like it's still... I'm still processing

[00:31:44] But definitely I have a lot of issues with religion

[00:31:48] And I will never be part of a religion for sure

[00:31:51] I know that

[00:31:52] I really think that religion is institutionalized

[00:31:57] I think that faith is something completely different

[00:32:00] And faith is something so personal

[00:32:02] And growing up with all of these different people

[00:32:05] That believe in all of these different rules

[00:32:07] I just feel like I made it also relative for me

[00:32:10] Like why do you not eat this?

[00:32:12] And why can't you do this on a Saturday?

[00:32:14] Like nothing makes sense

[00:32:16] All the other people I know don't do this

[00:32:18] And they still live good lives

[00:32:20] I understand that it's a way to structure your life

[00:32:23] But I guess it's never been a way that I structure my life

[00:32:26] So I don't miss not having that structure

[00:32:28] And I feel like I always grow up thinking

[00:32:31] That everybody in my family believes in the same God

[00:32:34] They just have different ways

[00:32:36] And most of the ways seem just too extreme for me

[00:32:39] I think also because I studied international relations

[00:32:43] And I studied a lot of religious conflict

[00:32:47] Always trying to figure out if this is actually about religion

[00:32:51] Or is it actually about politics and 100% of the time

[00:32:54] I arrive at the confusion that it's about politics

[00:32:57] So I really see religion being misused

[00:33:00] And being devised more than I see as a unifying factor

[00:33:05] And when it's something beautiful, it's usually culture

[00:33:09] That is culture disguised as religion

[00:33:11] And it's something that people just do regardless of their religion

[00:33:14] Like my family celebrates Christmas so much

[00:33:17] Even though most of us are not Christian

[00:33:19] And it's really not about Christianity for us

[00:33:22] It's just about culture

[00:33:24] I don't know, religion for me really loses

[00:33:26] It's a pill anytime I think about it for three seconds

[00:33:31] But then faith is something that I find really

[00:33:34] Necessary for survival

[00:33:36] I think even though I don't have a specific faith that I believe

[00:33:41] And I think also faith just changes over time

[00:33:45] My faith has changed so much

[00:33:47] It went from being a very traditional praying to God

[00:33:51] At my window because I thought God is literally in the sky

[00:33:55] Talking up to God

[00:33:57] Having all these different imaginations

[00:34:01] Where could God be?

[00:34:03] What could God be?

[00:34:05] And always thinking that there is something

[00:34:07] But I really don't have any exact idea of what it is

[00:34:15] As you oddly pointed out, there definitely is a very big difference between religion

[00:34:20] Organized religion and faith

[00:34:23] What really struck me is when you said faith is very important to our survival

[00:34:29] How has it been important to your survival?

[00:34:34] Well, I think the world is extremely depressing

[00:34:37] And I engage also with it

[00:34:39] Like I don't shield myself from the depressingness

[00:34:43] It's always really interesting

[00:34:45] I use my phone and I also use mylexphone a lot

[00:34:48] And mylexphone is all happy dogs and happy babies in good food

[00:34:53] And my Instagram is just burning houses and floods

[00:34:58] And people being killed and people protesting

[00:35:01] And I lost actually my interest in faith

[00:35:04] When I was 13 because my friend passed away from cancer

[00:35:08] She was my age

[00:35:10] She was in hospital with a lot of other kids that had cancer

[00:35:14] And a lot of them were Catholic, very religious

[00:35:18] And they kept saying, you know, if I have to die

[00:35:21] Because God has a plan for me

[00:35:23] And she really didn't believe in God

[00:35:25] And it made her so angry

[00:35:27] And somehow that I felt like her

[00:35:30] It made me so angry

[00:35:32] Like if God is going to make these kids die then

[00:35:35] Why would I ever think God is a good thing?

[00:35:39] And so that really

[00:35:41] I remember the second book I ever wanted to write

[00:35:44] The first one was like a fantasy novel about this

[00:35:47] It's a warrior that looked like a meter taller than me

[00:35:51] That was in this fantasy land

[00:35:53] And then the second book I ever wanted to write

[00:35:56] It was after my friend died

[00:35:58] About this world where there's actually no God

[00:36:01] There's just this firm that decides who dies

[00:36:05] So I really went to a dark place

[00:36:07] Where I didn't believe that there's any God

[00:36:09] And that was really difficult

[00:36:11] And I think believing that there's no sense in anything

[00:36:15] And it makes it so difficult to want to be alive

[00:36:19] Yeah, I'm sorry to hear about your friend

[00:36:23] That's really terrible

[00:36:25] At any age but especially at such a young age

[00:36:28] I think it's very hard

[00:36:32] I find it interesting that the majority of the

[00:36:35] Your thoughts on religion like you know

[00:36:38] I'm with you and I

[00:36:39] Very much relate and agree

[00:36:41] You know an argument

[00:36:43] Again especially like in the Middle East that you get a lot from people

[00:36:46] Agnosticism and atheism even more so

[00:36:49] It was a huge taboo in the Middle East

[00:36:51] You know, like your senescent

[00:36:53] And infidel you have no morals you know

[00:36:56] And I think this thing of tying morality to faith

[00:37:01] And oftentimes organized religion is very problematic

[00:37:06] Because in my point of view you can be

[00:37:09] Agnostic or atheist or faithless religionless

[00:37:12] And still have a very high moral compass

[00:37:15] And have ethics you know

[00:37:18] Like I just don't think ethics and morality come from faith or religion

[00:37:23] No, no can I say I completely agree

[00:37:25] And I also consider myself an agnostic

[00:37:28] If I had to define faith that would for me include agnosticism

[00:37:32] Because you don't know but you don't think that there's nothing

[00:37:36] I think that for me includes faith

[00:37:39] And I think that so my best friend is an atheist

[00:37:43] And she's a great person

[00:37:45] But she's very, very sad about the world

[00:37:49] Because she truly thinks that absolutely anything is coincidence

[00:37:53] And I think that it would help her so much to just have faith

[00:37:58] That it doesn't have to be like this

[00:38:01] Like this doesn't have to be the world

[00:38:04] The world is really, really terrible

[00:38:07] And also not everything has to be senseless

[00:38:11] I have an uncle who's also an atheist

[00:38:15] And he only believes that humans are good to each other

[00:38:20] Because this is the only way we can be together

[00:38:22] He thinks it's purely strategic kind of

[00:38:25] I feel like this belief really informs how he interacts with people

[00:38:31] He's very strategic and he's very selfish

[00:38:34] And he's very greedy without wanting to be

[00:38:37] And I think that agnosticism is very different

[00:38:40] Because you don't know but you don't think you know that there's nothing

[00:38:46] For me it's like, is the world great?

[00:38:49] Or is there something in the world?

[00:38:52] Then for me there's a reason to try be a better version of myself

[00:38:58] I took this class at university about like the origin of ethics

[00:39:05] And I think one of the theories of how ethics came to be

[00:39:10] Is that the only reason that retreat people a certain way

[00:39:14] Is because we expect a return

[00:39:16] And I don't remember what the other two theories were

[00:39:21] And I'd be very curious to read that again

[00:39:24] For me too

[00:39:26] So you've mentioned in passing throughout this conversation, queerness

[00:39:34] Do you identify as queer?

[00:39:36] That's an interesting question

[00:39:38] At this very moment I think of there's like LGBT plus and there's queer

[00:39:46] And they are two different separate things or groups of people

[00:39:52] Identities, but they're very often overlap

[00:39:56] And so for me LGBT plus identity markers

[00:40:02] So the L is for lesbian

[00:40:05] And so that can be somebody's sexuality

[00:40:09] But then queer for me is a set of politics

[00:40:14] And a worldview and a set of values

[00:40:18] And a certain way of community building

[00:40:22] And practicing tolerance and acceptance and so on

[00:40:26] Which lesbian doesn't have to do just because this is their sexuality

[00:40:32] And I don't know why I chose the L

[00:40:34] I should have gone with the gay G

[00:40:38] So there are so many incidents where queer people of color

[00:40:42] They don't feel comfortable in spaces that are designated as queer spaces

[00:40:47] Because they're full of cis white gay men

[00:40:50] That may be gay but they still have so much privilege and they take up so much space

[00:40:55] And so there's like a lot of problems in terms of solidarity and so on

[00:41:01] And so even though different people might fall under the LGBT plus banner

[00:41:07] That doesn't mean they have to feel comfortable with each other

[00:41:09] They have to act in a certain way or believe in specific values or vote the same or anything like that

[00:41:17] It's a very weak community marker

[00:41:19] But then I still struggle to call myself that because I feel that a very big unifier for queer people is struggle

[00:41:30] And having some sort of pain

[00:41:33] Whether that is that it's not accepted in society or internalized homophobia

[00:41:39] Or not feeling that you are in the right body

[00:41:43] Like a lot of queerness or queer solidarity is based on struggle

[00:41:49] And thankfully I never had to have any struggle

[00:41:52] Because that maybe it exists in my family but it's so meaningless to me

[00:41:58] I was raised not to ever question if it's weird that a man because it's a man or ever question who I find attractive

[00:42:08] And it's not something that I ever felt like I even have to talk about so much with my parents

[00:42:13] Also because they grew up and my dad had a lot of lesbian friends

[00:42:17] And so I never even thought that it would be weird for him if I have a girlfriend or something

[00:42:24] And then my family is my Sudanese and my German family

[00:42:27] There are so many ways that I don't relate to them

[00:42:30] And don't even live in the same city as me

[00:42:33] So if any of them are homophobic, it really doesn't matter to me

[00:42:39] Because I know a lot of them are homophobic

[00:42:42] And I just don't care

[00:42:43] Like it wouldn't change who I like

[00:42:46] And then my younger sister

[00:42:48] When she was I think 17

[00:42:50] We were having dinner my dad, my mom, my sister and I

[00:42:54] I don't even know if she said anything

[00:42:56] I think she just said that she's bisexual

[00:42:58] And my dad choked a bit and went and smoked a stress cigarette

[00:43:02] And then he came back

[00:43:04] Then that was it

[00:43:05] So that was like the coming out story in our family

[00:43:08] So I feel like it really just hasn't ever been a big issue

[00:43:14] But so far in my life I feel like I've dated men

[00:43:19] And I haven't had any kind of problem in my life

[00:43:23] And so a lot of the queer pain and queer struggle

[00:43:26] That the queer community deals with

[00:43:28] And my friends deal with

[00:43:30] I just don't relate to it

[00:43:32] Do you feel like struggle is a marker of queerness?

[00:43:37] I think that it is

[00:43:39] And I would like for it to not be

[00:43:42] But I don't know if I am in the position to make that decision

[00:43:47] If that makes sense

[00:43:49] So if you ask me as a moona

[00:43:51] Do I think that it has to be a marker?

[00:43:55] Then I would say no

[00:43:57] Because for me personally queerness is something

[00:44:00] That is really beautiful

[00:44:03] And it's the way I see the world

[00:44:06] Like it has given me the lenses through which I understand society

[00:44:10] So for me personally, it's something so positive

[00:44:14] So it's interesting that you make the distinction between LGBT plus and queerness

[00:44:27] If you were to define queerness, how would you define it?

[00:44:31] Queerness for me is a liberation movement

[00:44:37] That encompasses politics and culture and arts and academia

[00:44:42] It's the effort to move away from heteronormativity

[00:44:46] Or not only move away to destroy heteronormativity

[00:44:50] And make space for all kinds of people to live together

[00:44:55] Regardless of if you share an identity with them

[00:44:59] Because queerness is so vague

[00:45:01] I think the point of it is to come together

[00:45:04] And try to understand

[00:45:06] And also accept that there are many things that you can't understand

[00:45:09] And then really just build tolerance

[00:45:13] And unlearn harmful cultural norms that we have learnt

[00:45:18] It's interesting because depending on who you ask

[00:45:23] Some people will define queerness as purely a kind of sexual orientation

[00:45:29] And others will encompass the different elements, the politics

[00:45:34] I think one person described it as like a grey

[00:45:37] It's like accepting a grey

[00:45:39] It's not nothing's black and white

[00:45:41] It's all in the grey

[00:45:42] And I thought that was very interesting, we were putting it

[00:45:45] I guess for some people being queer means something that really impacts their life so much

[00:45:54] And it just has to be part of their identity

[00:45:58] Whether they want it or not

[00:46:00] And then other people

[00:46:01] For example somebody who is bi- or pansexual

[00:46:04] But then in a relationship that really easily passes as a heteror relationship

[00:46:10] They can afford to not make it the identity if they don't want to

[00:46:15] Because they pass so easily

[00:46:18] And so that to me is like again being part of a group

[00:46:23] But not getting the brunt of what it can mean to be part of that group

[00:46:29] And so that makes it a bit more difficult to talk about it

[00:46:32] Because you are part of the conversation

[00:46:35] But then there's so much that can be said that can hurt other people or offend other people

[00:46:42] So it's really difficult to navigate

[00:46:43] And I think it's just practice

[00:46:46] But then for example my cousin who is also mixed and also queer

[00:46:51] For some reason she has never found any ground to speak about anything

[00:46:56] She always feels like somebody is going to judge her and she's going to say something wrong

[00:47:00] And so she just lives her life following all of the conversations

[00:47:03] And never participating in anything

[00:47:05] And I think that's so sad

[00:47:07] Because she has so much inside of her

[00:47:10] And she never tells anyone because she's so scared to do something wrong

[00:47:15] I think this is harder and harder with

[00:47:17] It's a double-edged sword, right?

[00:47:19] Like the social media and how accessible everything is today

[00:47:22] And how easy it is to share personal opinions today

[00:47:25] It's a lot easier than it's ever been in a sense

[00:47:28] But on the other hand, there's also never been a stronger like cancel culture than now

[00:47:35] So people are just like waiting with pitchforks and just to crucify people

[00:47:40] You know what I mean?

[00:47:42] So I think that makes it very difficult and something that I definitely can relate with your cousin over

[00:47:49] But I feel like today there's a lot of...

[00:47:52] So there's like fear porn today

[00:47:56] But I feel like today there's also struggle porn

[00:47:59] It's not a term

[00:48:01] But like well you had it tough, but like you know I had it tougher

[00:48:05] Like the oppression or limpix

[00:48:09] Yeah, that's a good way to put it together

[00:48:12] So like as you were expressing this I was just can you identify a square or not

[00:48:19] Because the struggle aspect of it isn't there for you

[00:48:23] I was just wondering about this

[00:48:25] There'd be not like, I mean we collectively

[00:48:29] Not take this a little bit too far in the sense that like

[00:48:32] You have to have struggled to be accepted or to be a part of the group

[00:48:37] That's also for a movement and for a school of thought that's all about the grey and all about acceptance

[00:48:44] That's putting boundaries there essentially

[00:48:49] Yeah, I agree with you

[00:48:51] And also putting myself in a situation

[00:48:54] I think in theory that's true

[00:48:57] But also we're just humans

[00:48:59] Like again I think of it

[00:49:02] It's maybe easier to think about it for me in terms of racism

[00:49:05] Because that very much I see as part of my identity like blackness

[00:49:09] And I just think about how like a dark skin person sits next to a light skin person

[00:49:15] And they're both black but just you know, it's just not the same

[00:49:19] And then I just see how like how different

[00:49:23] And again in my film I guess we stopped talking about it

[00:49:25] But in my film it was so interesting filming

[00:49:29] Seeing how everybody tries to really understand each other

[00:49:32] But it is just very frustrating for dark skin people sometimes say listen to light skin people

[00:49:38] And that doesn't mean that they don't like us or they don't think we struggle

[00:49:42] But just it's just not the same

[00:49:44] But then we are all in the same group

[00:49:47] And maybe we're all given either the same platform

[00:49:50] Or because of privilege then light skin people are given

[00:49:53] Most of the time a bigger platform

[00:49:56] And so I see how personally it can be so so frustrating

[00:50:00] And the same if somebody is a lesbian person in a country where you forever have to hide your relationship

[00:50:09] And then somebody else comes and says yeah, relate to this attraction

[00:50:14] But in my life it's never been a problem

[00:50:17] Then that doesn't mean that they can't like each other or they can't bond over certain things

[00:50:22] But it's still going to be so frustrating

[00:50:25] True

[00:50:27] Yeah, definitely not everybody has the same opportunities

[00:50:33] So the last question I wanted to ask you before we jump into the unchancellatable word segment

[00:50:40] Is about culture

[00:50:42] You've reflected the law on this on identity belonging home in general

[00:50:48] How do you personally define culture?

[00:50:51] Because I feel like there are different definitions for it

[00:50:55] Oftentimes when we're talking about culture in a conversational sense

[00:50:59] We're talking about like theater, art, entertainment, these sort of things

[00:51:04] But then when we're talking about culture

[00:51:07] So there's almost like there's an understanding of what we mean when we talk about culture

[00:51:11] And the identity and belonging realm

[00:51:14] But what is it really?

[00:51:16] Is a question I've been asking myself lately

[00:51:19] So I wonder if you have a thought on that

[00:51:24] It's very confusing word for me culture

[00:51:29] Because I feel like I know what it is, like deep down I feel like I know

[00:51:33] But then I took a class in university called Politics of Culture

[00:51:40] And I was really not good at it

[00:51:44] It was so confusing and we read all these different definitions of culture

[00:51:49] And somehow they all seem to be true

[00:51:52] And so I feel like I left that class so confused about what culture means

[00:51:57] But I think culture is what we create

[00:52:04] What humans create amongst each other as their reality somehow

[00:52:11] Like lately I think of culture as something that people create

[00:52:15] And then they all accept it and then it becomes the truth

[00:52:18] Like they conjure it up

[00:52:20] And then the second somebody comes in and doesn't believe in it, then it's gone

[00:52:24] Because it's really just an illusion

[00:52:27] I think also maybe living in Egypt it's seen as this given thing

[00:52:30] This is just our culture

[00:52:32] And that to me is so wrong because I think culture is something that we create every day

[00:52:38] And we create all of our choices

[00:52:40] And especially as we continue creating art

[00:52:43] Like you said, like art and theatre and music

[00:52:46] It's like we constantly change the culture

[00:52:49] And we can change culture even by deciding to talk to each other differently

[00:52:54] Or communicate differently

[00:52:56] So it's this ever-changing reality that we create

[00:53:00] And then live by

[00:53:01] It's somehow a reality and not our reality at the same time

[00:53:05] It's a paradox

[00:53:07] Let's say you grow up in a culture where if you want to move in with someone

[00:53:16] Like somebody you love, then you have to marry them

[00:53:20] And then that person says no you don't

[00:53:23] Like we don't have to get married, we can just move in

[00:53:25] And suddenly we can just move in

[00:53:27] And before you never thought that was possible

[00:53:30] The like culture seems like this insurmountable thing

[00:53:33] Because this is what you have to do

[00:53:35] And then you have to get baptized to belong to this group

[00:53:43] And then you don't get baptized

[00:53:46] And you find yourself living exactly the same life as everybody else

[00:53:49] Like as long as you do it, it seems like this is actually the reality

[00:53:53] But then you can so easily change it

[00:53:56] And you realize it's not just this thing that's between us

[00:54:00] Like the unseen things between people

[00:54:03] It can easily be a self-fulfilling prophecy also

[00:54:06] Well, I don't know if I'd agree with it being a self-fulfilling prophecy

[00:54:11] Just because you can't...

[00:54:14] I think culture, I don't know how to frame this exactly

[00:54:17] But culture, it's not a singular, it can't exist alone

[00:54:21] Like I can't have my own Beatrice culture

[00:54:25] Culture depends on the people who are in the same place

[00:54:29] Culture depends on a community or a society or a group

[00:54:36] So I don't know if it can be a self-fulfilling prophecy

[00:54:39] That's an interesting thought

[00:54:43] So I didn't ask you this at any point

[00:54:45] I mean, I'd piece together a few things

[00:54:48] But where have you lived?

[00:54:51] So I was born in race in Germany

[00:54:54] And I went for a bit to England when I was 16

[00:54:58] So they were my aunt, the Sudanese one

[00:55:02] And then when I graduated, then I went back to Germany

[00:55:06] And then I graduated from high school and I went travelling for a year

[00:55:10] And then I studied in London, international relations in Arabic

[00:55:15] And in that course it was four years

[00:55:18] The third year I had to go study abroad in an Arabic speaking country

[00:55:22] And so I went to Egypt and I lived in Alexandria

[00:55:25] And then after graduating, I really wanted to go back to Egypt

[00:55:31] And see, not see because I've seen it a lot

[00:55:34] But see what it's like to live in Cairo

[00:55:37] So I did an internship

[00:55:39] And I was only going to go for three months

[00:55:41] But then I kind of got stuck there

[00:55:45] And fell in love with the country or whatever

[00:55:49] And then I was in Cairo for two years

[00:55:53] Oh wow!

[00:55:55] Then I went to the US for most of this year

[00:55:59] And now I'm back in Germany actually trying to figure out where to go next

[00:56:03] Well, I mean it sounds like there are many possibilities

[00:56:08] Where you could go next

[00:56:12] I wanted to ask you one last thing

[00:56:14] Which again, I should have led with

[00:56:16] When I saw your name, I was like, I've never seen the name Amuna before

[00:56:20] I thought it was a nickname for Amina

[00:56:23] Is it related to it?

[00:56:25] Yeah, it is

[00:56:26] It's kind of right

[00:56:28] This is one of my struggles actually

[00:56:31] So my dad's name, my dad's name

[00:56:35] My dad's mother's name is Amna

[00:56:37] And he wanted to name his first child after his mother

[00:56:42] But my mother didn't want every time I say my name for a German sythinke's Anna

[00:56:48] And so him thinking that I will probably never go to the Arabic-speaking world

[00:56:55] And decided to name me the nickname that he had for his mom, which is Amuna

[00:57:00] And so that was my name, my mom liked it

[00:57:03] And then when I moved to Egypt and started interacting with lots of Arabs from all over

[00:57:09] Every time I say my name, either they just ignore it and say Amina

[00:57:15] Because they think that I accidentally introduced myself with my nickname

[00:57:19] Or they just laugh at me

[00:57:21] And they're like nobody does all the time five is called Amuna

[00:57:26] Maybe for context Amuna is the nickname

[00:57:29] It's like small Amina

[00:57:31] But it's actually my name

[00:57:33] So yeah, it just creates a bit of an awkward environment

[00:57:36] Because people think that I'm very not serious when I introduce myself with my nickname

[00:57:41] But my name is in fact that nickname

[00:57:51] So now for the untranslatable word segment

[00:57:55] Can you share a word that doesn't translate into the English language

[00:58:01] The first one is a word that actually my Sudanese family uses a lot

[00:58:05] And it's second alarm

[00:58:07] So it's two words together and it translates to little goat alarm

[00:58:12] And a little goat in German is somebody who's very, very annoying

[00:58:17] And passive, aggressive, and dramatic you know

[00:58:22] And so when my uncle refers to my dad, he'll say, chicken alarm

[00:58:27] And when my dad refers to the rest of the family, he'll say chicken alarm

[00:58:31] And so we're trying to translate it the other day

[00:58:34] And we realized that basically they remind each other of little goats

[00:58:40] That's so strange

[00:58:42] That's so strange

[00:58:43] It's very strange

[00:58:45] And it's funny because goats are like really loud

[00:58:48] Because goats tend to scream, right?

[00:58:50] Like there's all these videos online

[00:58:52] Yeah, exactly

[00:58:53] So yeah, it's just the idea of somebody making unnecessary drama

[00:58:58] And being unnecessarily loud and annoying

[00:59:01] And I feel like it just, even though it can't be translated

[00:59:04] It works so well with Sudanese culture

[00:59:07] And the fact that it's connected to the word alarm is just perfect

[00:59:11] Because you realize how urgent it is

[00:59:13] But it is a German word, yeah?

[00:59:16] It's a German word but I don't know any German that uses it

[00:59:19] I only know Sudanese people that picked it up from German

[00:59:22] And then use it widely and wildly

[00:59:26] How funny

[00:59:28] Hmm, okay

[00:59:30] It's a poetically of calling someone annoying at least

[00:59:33] You know, I'll give you that

[00:59:35] And it's a bit of downplaying

[00:59:37] It's like it's annoying but it's like baby annoying

[00:59:40] Like a baby goat

[00:59:42] Like you don't take it that seriously

[00:59:44] You're just slightly bothered

[00:59:46] Do you use that? Have you been passed down to your generation?

[00:59:50] I feel like yeah because they use it a lot

[00:59:53] So I also use it to refer to my family

[00:59:59] And I just think it describes my dad and my uncle

[01:00:02] So well

[01:00:04] I just, you know, we have like a tiny table in the kitchen

[01:00:08] Where we'd like just have small meals

[01:00:11] And so I just have this image of my uncle and my dad

[01:00:14] Sitting at this very tiny table drinking herbal tea

[01:00:19] And bickering and then referring to each other as little goats

[01:00:23] And in extreme situations as little goat alarm

[01:00:26] It's a cute wave and something so I definitely mean so

[01:00:31] So that's a wrap for today

[01:00:33] If you've enjoyed this conversation

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[01:00:38] The In-Beat-TwinishPod is created and hosted by Beatrice Norr

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