how has your family's past influenced your identity? — with Amuna pt.1

[00:00:00] This is a place where we talk about belonging Welcome to the Inbetweenish I'm Beatriz Nour, your host

[00:00:10] raised in three cultures two religions and four languages Trust me, I get the chaos

[00:00:17] On the show I chat with those who have lived that inbetweenish life, a foot here and a foot there

[00:00:22] Building bridges across cultures and of course the age old quest to finding home

[00:00:30] Today I'm talking to Amuna Wagner and she's recording this from Germany

[00:00:38] She's a multicultural CCK cross-cultural kid of mixed heritage

[00:00:43] In her work as a writer, journalist and filmmaker, she explores the many ways in which we heal ourselves and others

[00:00:50] You can find links to her work and her online publication Kandaka in the show notes below

[00:00:57] I always start off recordings by asking my guests how they feel and what if any are subjects that are off the table

[00:01:05] As it turns out, there weren't that many in this case however

[00:01:08] The started conversation with Amuna took a turn towards her fascinating family history

[00:01:14] So Amuna's episodes are divided into two parts the first episode where we explore her heritage from her grandparents to her parents

[00:01:24] and how she came to be German Sudanese

[00:01:27] And mind you this was recorded before the war broke out in Sudan so there's no mention of that in these episodes

[00:01:34] And the second episode coming out in two weeks we will dive into her story her experience growing up as an interracial kid

[00:01:41] Queerness and so much more

[00:01:44] So here's me asking Amuna about her identity crises

[00:01:49] If I were to ask you like open-endedly not just now like in your life but like even in the past

[00:01:59] What have been like your greatest identity crises that you faced?

[00:02:03] What would those be?

[00:02:06] So you'd actually just mentioned one

[00:02:09] Which is my current identity crisis

[00:02:12] When you when we were talking about what we're comfortable sharing and how to not offend anyone which I think is just

[00:02:20] impossible as a writer

[00:02:22] and

[00:02:24] I'm trying to write a book about my family and it just the content of the book is everything that

[00:02:30] My family would for sure not want anyone to know

[00:02:33] So my entire book is where everybody doesn't want me to write and somehow for years

[00:02:38] I've been feeling like I really really have to write it and

[00:02:42] It's not enough to change names for sure anybody that knows me will read it and will not exactly want to talk about

[00:02:49] So I'm in crisis because I don't want to throw my family under the bus, but I just

[00:02:53] Selfishly really want to write this book

[00:02:56] So I feel like that's definitely my current identity crisis. I think also a crisis of purpose

[00:03:04] Very often and also currently I think just

[00:03:08] Trying to decide what is the one thing that I'm really good at in life

[00:03:12] I guess relating to identity

[00:03:14] deciding what are the responsibilities that come with that

[00:03:18] I feel like I've been trying to decide which masters to study for three years

[00:03:24] And I never get to actually study anything because I can never decide what I should do because yeah

[00:03:30] There definitely is a crisis of purpose and responsibility relating to my identity

[00:03:37] Or even where I should live should I live in Germany and then

[00:03:41] Work in media and try to be a voice because there aren't so many or should I just live where I want to live

[00:03:47] But then I live in places where I like to live in big cities where there are a lot of people like me

[00:03:53] But I think that my impact would be much bigger in Germany

[00:03:56] So I'm constantly thinking should I just move to Germany even though I don't really want to live here

[00:04:02] Um yeah, I think those are the ones that I

[00:04:05] That are very current but also have been going on for a long time

[00:04:10] This is actually something that I was kind of hesitating to ask you about actually

[00:04:14] Which is about your family's um history

[00:04:17] Yeah

[00:04:19] Well

[00:04:20] So I want to share my family's story for different reasons

[00:04:25] The selfish aspect is that I think I can

[00:04:30] Heal from it because it's um

[00:04:34] It's very sensational and like entertaining but it's also very sad and a lot of terrible terrible things happen

[00:04:41] And I spend my life just every now and then sitting down and thinking about it and feeling so sad

[00:04:47] And so I think if I can weave a story that somehow

[00:04:52] Tells the sad parts but also you know how we

[00:04:57] I feel like in life we give a live meaning and hindsight

[00:05:00] So like you didn't get into this program and then you went and got this job

[00:05:04] And so then later you say oh

[00:05:07] I was never meant to do this program because I was meant to get this job

[00:05:12] And so we give this meaning and hindsight and this is how we feel like everything in life makes sense

[00:05:17] Or maybe not we me because I'm not very religious

[00:05:20] And so I don't really believe that everything is written for me in life and I feel like

[00:05:26] Meaning comes from hindsight

[00:05:28] So I would like to do that with my family story and

[00:05:32] See where people went after the really sad things

[00:05:36] So I can feel like oh this was meant to happen

[00:05:39] Because then they had to go here, you know

[00:05:42] Try to find the good things in it because in my writing

[00:05:45] I can then really try to focus on them whereas in my every day thinking about it

[00:05:50] I really focus on the bad things

[00:05:52] So that's my personal reason and that's why also my books

[00:05:58] Overarching theme is of healing

[00:06:01] For myself

[00:06:02] But then I think more academically

[00:06:07] It's very interesting

[00:06:08] For anyone because my family comes from lots of different parts of the world and they have traveled a lot

[00:06:15] And most of their migration was involuntary

[00:06:18] They just had to go somewhere and then they had to make a new life there

[00:06:22] And I think that it's a very interesting

[00:06:25] Micro story of very huge events

[00:06:28] Like the Holocaust or colonialism

[00:06:31] And I studied international relations

[00:06:33] And so I see like feminist politics everywhere and colonialism

[00:06:37] And I feel like my family is a great

[00:06:40] small story to understand these huge things

[00:06:44] And I'm mostly interested in how

[00:06:48] Memory influences how we see the world because

[00:06:52] Everybody in my family remembers these family stories differently

[00:06:56] And depending on how they choose to remember and forms what they believe

[00:07:00] So I have very Islamophobic Jewish family and I have very anti-Semitic

[00:07:07] Muslim family and I have very white

[00:07:10] family

[00:07:12] And that thinks colonialism was great

[00:07:14] And they somehow share the same stories

[00:07:17] But they choose to remember different aspects of it

[00:07:21] And that becomes the whole world

[00:07:22] And I feel like even just for my family if they all read this book

[00:07:26] A lot of them would realize that their opinions are really stupid

[00:07:30] And this makes no sense

[00:07:34] But they don't talk to each other so they forget

[00:07:37] Even inside the family they have their own bubbles

[00:07:40] And I feel like from an outside perspective it

[00:07:44] It can be very informative but it can also maybe make people think about how they choose

[00:07:48] To remember themselves and how they're informs how they think

[00:07:52] And how they vote and so on

[00:07:54] And the prejudices that they hold

[00:07:56] Towards other groups of people and so on

[00:08:00] So I think there's a value in other people reading it

[00:08:04] But for me personally I also just want to write it down and then

[00:08:09] Finally let go and do other things in my life

[00:08:12] How do you feel like your family's history impacts your personal life today

[00:08:19] And in many ways I think that I'm very ironic

[00:08:25] A direct project of my family

[00:08:27] I'm exactly who I would be

[00:08:29] If you don't know me but you know my family's history

[00:08:32] Then you'll meet me and you'll be like oh this is exactly how I thought she would be

[00:08:37] So it's strange that I feel so different to them

[00:08:40] So my family traveled a lot

[00:08:42] And so I also traveled a lot

[00:08:44] And I don't really have a home

[00:08:45] I have like my home here in Germany

[00:08:47] But I haven't lived here in a long time

[00:08:49] And this entire year I haven't even had a flat

[00:08:52] I spent my entire time staying at somebody's house

[00:08:56] So I think that's like a very extreme manifestation of this family

[00:09:01] That really doesn't get rooted

[00:09:05] And so in this world, this very globalized world

[00:09:08] I struggle so much to find roots somewhere

[00:09:10] And then also yeah and my values

[00:09:14] I just know

[00:09:16] Like my family belongs to all the three big major religions

[00:09:21] For example

[00:09:24] So I can't afford to not be open-minded to any of them

[00:09:29] Or to really believe that one is definitely right

[00:09:32] Because I always have like some auntie that believes something different

[00:09:35] Or some uncle that believes something different

[00:09:38] And so I think I have like a different approach

[00:09:40] But also that makes everything much more relative to me

[00:09:44] So I take things which less seriously

[00:09:47] Than my family, I think as a result

[00:09:49] And I see the same with my sister or my cousins

[00:09:52] So that's another way

[00:09:55] And I wonder what else

[00:09:58] I think just in general

[00:10:01] If you have been through so much

[00:10:03] You can't really afford to be very scared of things

[00:10:06] So I can very easily do something

[00:10:09] And maybe to other people either it will look like I'm super brave

[00:10:12] Which I'm not

[00:10:13] Or it will look like I'm not really thinking about it

[00:10:16] Which is probably more the case

[00:10:18] So if Malik says he wants to go to Vietnam

[00:10:21] I'll be like okay let's go

[00:10:23] Now just go

[00:10:24] And then when I'm there I'll think

[00:10:26] So what am I gonna do here now

[00:10:27] And how long do I want to stay here

[00:10:30] And you know

[00:10:31] I just do things

[00:10:32] I just go

[00:10:33] Because things don't feel very definite for me

[00:10:36] But there's probably also a fear of getting stuck somewhere

[00:10:40] That comes as a result of my family

[00:10:43] So in a sense

[00:10:44] You feel a sense of ruthlessness

[00:10:47] But you also have a fear of developing roots

[00:10:50] Yeah

[00:10:51] Developing not roots

[00:10:52] Developing

[00:10:53] Streckation

[00:10:54] I think

[00:10:55] Yeah

[00:10:56] Okay maybe that's the better word

[00:10:59] There are a bit juxtaposed

[00:11:01] Wouldn't you say

[00:11:02] Yeah

[00:11:02] Yeah

[00:11:04] The opposite

[00:11:05] Which is really stressful

[00:11:07] But I think I

[00:11:10] I can be home in a lot of places

[00:11:12] But I'm

[00:11:12] I'm that person that always looks to the grass on the other side

[00:11:16] And it's like I should have go there

[00:11:19] I'm not the kind of person that will sit somewhere and be unhappy

[00:11:22] To be there

[00:11:23] I'm always happy wherever I am

[00:11:25] But just because I like it doesn't mean I want to stay

[00:11:28] I feel like

[00:11:29] I want to see everything

[00:11:31] But then I also

[00:11:32] Would love to have like a face

[00:11:34] So those two don't go hand in hand

[00:11:36] So it's not a perfect situation yet

[00:11:40] In hearing all this

[00:11:41] I have to ask

[00:11:43] How do you usually present yourself

[00:11:48] That really changes to who I'm talking to

[00:11:50] So if I'm talking to a white person

[00:11:53] Then I am German

[00:11:55] Or German Sidney's

[00:11:57] And when I talk to a person of color

[00:11:59] Then I am Sidney's German

[00:12:04] What different cultures do you balance with them

[00:12:07] I think in my everyday walking around

[00:12:11] Not so many

[00:12:13] I'm very European

[00:12:15] I didn't realize this until I went to the US and I realized I'm very European

[00:12:19] So I have to claim that now

[00:12:23] And then in Europe

[00:12:24] I feel very not European

[00:12:28] So again it changes

[00:12:29] But then a lot of the history that for example comes through faith

[00:12:34] I don't feel like I have that in me

[00:12:36] Unless there's a trigger for it

[00:12:38] So I don't feel very Jewish

[00:12:39] Unless I'm in a setting

[00:12:41] Where people are anti-Jewish

[00:12:43] Then I feel like no I'm part of this group

[00:12:45] And I have to say something

[00:12:46] And the same for Islam

[00:12:48] I don't feel Muslim at all

[00:12:51] But then technically I am

[00:12:52] Because my dad is Muslim

[00:12:54] And I did grow up with Muslim religion

[00:12:56] Islamic religion

[00:12:58] But then it's not something that I think of

[00:13:00] Unless I'm in an environment

[00:13:01] Where people will be Islamophobic

[00:13:03] Then I suddenly feel it very personally

[00:13:06] And so then all of those experiences come up

[00:13:10] Like I'm ready then to debate and to talk about it

[00:13:12] And to inform people

[00:13:14] And then I realized that there's a lot more than I know

[00:13:17] Whereas in my everyday life

[00:13:18] It's not something I think come

[00:13:21] And I think my politics actually

[00:13:23] And for my everyday life much more than my identities

[00:13:27] But then there are so many triggers that take

[00:13:30] Bring them out

[00:13:31] And so you never know

[00:13:34] You never know which part is going to come out

[00:13:37] You said my politics informed my day today more

[00:13:40] What do you mean by that?

[00:13:44] I think that I use feminist politics

[00:13:47] Or queer politics much more to make sense of the world

[00:13:51] Than my

[00:13:53] The different cultures that I have in me

[00:13:57] Because also I use those politics

[00:14:00] Think about my cultures

[00:14:01] And my culture upbringing

[00:14:03] And what I think was good

[00:14:05] And what I think is not good

[00:14:06] And what I want to learn

[00:14:07] So that's like my

[00:14:08] Check

[00:14:09] Checking system

[00:14:10] For myself

[00:14:11] And also for the world

[00:14:14] Okay, I want to dig a little deeper

[00:14:16] I want to ask

[00:14:18] More about your

[00:14:20] Families background

[00:14:21] So what I mean by that

[00:14:23] It's not just culturally

[00:14:24] I mean religiously as well

[00:14:26] We kind of touch upon this

[00:14:28] I mean

[00:14:29] Ethnicity as well

[00:14:31] I read

[00:14:32] About your great grandmother's

[00:14:34] Nuba tribe

[00:14:36] Which is different than Nubian

[00:14:40] So you're a heritage there

[00:14:44] And then languages

[00:14:44] Because languages play the big role in all this as well

[00:14:47] Right

[00:14:48] True

[00:14:50] So

[00:14:51] I like that you make that distinction between Nuba

[00:14:54] And Nubia kisses the distinction

[00:14:55] But I actually come from both

[00:14:57] Oh

[00:14:58] Yeah

[00:14:59] So that's why that distinction is important to me

[00:15:02] Because they're so different

[00:15:03] And people conflate them

[00:15:05] And they're very different

[00:15:07] So my dad

[00:15:09] Was born in Sudan

[00:15:10] Whether it's he

[00:15:12] And he

[00:15:13] I don't know how actually he sees himself

[00:15:15] I think

[00:15:16] Arab

[00:15:17] Mostly

[00:15:17] Arab African

[00:15:19] Afro-Arab

[00:15:21] I'd like to know if he makes a difference

[00:15:24] Between those

[00:15:24] But I highly doubt it

[00:15:26] My dad, I don't think he thinks so much about it

[00:15:28] But then his father was born

[00:15:31] At the border with Eritrea and Ethiopia

[00:15:34] And my dad even though he lives in Germany

[00:15:36] He feels very close to Ethiopia and Eritrea

[00:15:39] We go to the Eritrea and restaurant like every week

[00:15:42] And I grew up with so many

[00:15:43] Eritrea and Eritrea people

[00:15:46] Personally, I don't feel like I shared their culture

[00:15:48] About my dad really

[00:15:49] Does because he used to go

[00:15:51] See his grandparents that lived by the border with Eritrea

[00:15:55] As a child every summer

[00:15:58] So I think that's part of my dad's culture

[00:16:00] But it's not really part of my culture anymore

[00:16:03] So it's not something that we talk a lot about

[00:16:06] It's just

[00:16:07] It shows by how close he feels to these people

[00:16:10] He loves them

[00:16:12] He loves the music, the food, everything

[00:16:14] And that's just maybe a longing that he has

[00:16:17] Because that's his childhood

[00:16:18] But just a tiny part of it

[00:16:20] Just going there once a year in the summer

[00:16:23] But then my dad didn't really grow up with his dad

[00:16:26] Because his dad was a musician

[00:16:28] And he was touring Sudan all the time

[00:16:30] And he would just come every now and then

[00:16:32] And so

[00:16:33] Even though my dad is off his father's tribe

[00:16:36] Which is an Arab tribe

[00:16:39] One of the Nubian tribes

[00:16:41] My dad grew up in his mother's house

[00:16:43] With his mother's family

[00:16:44] And they are Nuba

[00:16:45] Which is a very African tribe

[00:16:47] So that's a whole different cultural background

[00:16:51] Is there something about Nubia

[00:16:52] That it has different tribes with the Nubian

[00:16:56] That are interesting, that's correctly

[00:16:57] Yeah, oh I didn't know that

[00:16:58] So Nubia used to be its own kingdom

[00:17:02] So there's Nubian Egypt and Nubian Sudan

[00:17:05] And they have their own language and so on

[00:17:08] But they have different sub tribes

[00:17:11] So no, all Nubians come from the same tribes

[00:17:15] My dad's tribe is a different name

[00:17:18] Than Nubian

[00:17:20] Interesting, okay, that makes sense

[00:17:22] So he would be classified as Nubian

[00:17:25] And then there's another sub tribe

[00:17:27] And that will then be his tribe

[00:17:30] And that's his father's tribe

[00:17:31] So that's always inherited from the father

[00:17:33] But then my dad didn't really spend so much time with his father

[00:17:37] So culturally he's much closer to his mother's tribe

[00:17:41] And that's a completely different corner of Sudan

[00:17:43] That's much further south

[00:17:45] And they are called Nuba

[00:17:47] And so in Sudan there's a whole identity crisis

[00:17:51] Whether they are Arab or African

[00:17:53] Yeah and depending on the tribe

[00:17:56] You will be more Arab or more African

[00:17:58] And so my dad culturally is much more African

[00:18:02] And I never met my grandpa, I only met my grandma

[00:18:06] So I don't know anything about this Nubian

[00:18:09] Arab side

[00:18:11] Really, I only know the African side

[00:18:14] Which for me again as a German

[00:18:15] Anyway confusing because Sudan anyways in Africa

[00:18:18] They're all from the African

[00:18:19] But then amongst each other they're more less African

[00:18:23] But then my grandma

[00:18:25] Comes from a very different

[00:18:28] lineage that actually comes from Kamarun

[00:18:31] And so a lot of people in her family are not even considered Sudanese

[00:18:35] Even though they are born in racism

[00:18:37] So then because they don't come from a tribe

[00:18:40] That is Sudanese tribe

[00:18:42] And so my dad grew up in a very African household

[00:18:45] And they are very aware that they are Kamarunian

[00:18:48] Originally and they have much darker skin tones

[00:18:51] Than most of the people around them

[00:18:53] And that's also another identity crisis

[00:18:56] Because none of them have ever been to Kamarun

[00:18:58] But somehow they're very much associated with it

[00:19:01] And then again me I've never been to Kamarun

[00:19:04] But that's also somehow part of my heritage

[00:19:07] So there's Nubian Nuba

[00:19:10] And Kamarun

[00:19:12] Which I'm sure comes with its own

[00:19:15] Different tribes and ethnicities as well

[00:19:17] Yeah that tribe was called Kata Koo

[00:19:20] And it's a Muslim tribe in Kamarun

[00:19:24] Okay so your father was raised then in a Muslim household

[00:19:29] Yeah very actually very

[00:19:32] I mean it depends I guess on how you look at it

[00:19:35] And Sudan people are in general very

[00:19:38] Quite open mind it Muslims

[00:19:41] And Sufism is very widespread in Sudan

[00:19:45] But then still my dad from my perspective

[00:19:48] Was raised in a very religious household

[00:19:50] And he knows the

[00:19:52] Most of the Quran in his head

[00:19:54] And he definitely very much believes

[00:19:57] As like his own way of believing as a practice

[00:20:00] But he's a very strong believer

[00:20:02] And the people in general and my family

[00:20:04] Are very passionate Muslims

[00:20:07] So that's your your father's side

[00:20:10] What about your mother's side

[00:20:13] And so my mom is German from Munich

[00:20:17] But her father was a Jew and Poland

[00:20:22] And it's very important to make that distinction

[00:20:24] That he was not Polish

[00:20:26] Because Jews in Poland were not considered Polish

[00:20:30] And also didn't want to be Polish

[00:20:31] Because Poland is a very very very anti-Semitic country

[00:20:35] And really let down the Jewish population

[00:20:38] In the Holocaust

[00:20:40] And so from what I know

[00:20:43] Most Jews really hate Poland more than Germany

[00:20:46] At least the ones that lived there

[00:20:47] And so they were very separate from society

[00:20:50] And I don't think that my grandpa

[00:20:53] Maybe he knew how to speak Polish

[00:20:54] But his language was Yiddish

[00:20:56] Which is a Jewish language that's a lot like German

[00:21:01] So that's yeah that's an important distinction

[00:21:03] So then my mom's roots are not Polish

[00:21:08] But Jewish in Poland

[00:21:11] And my mother's mother comes from an area called Bühmann

[00:21:19] That used to be Germany before Germany shrank

[00:21:22] After the world was

[00:21:24] And so now I would be Czech

[00:21:27] But back then it was considered Germany

[00:21:30] And so my mom's mother was German

[00:21:33] And that's actually the only German blood I have

[00:21:38] In my body even though I'm very German

[00:21:40] I only have my grandma

[00:21:42] As a genetically German person

[00:21:44] Sounds very strange

[00:21:46] But yeah so after the war

[00:21:48] My grandma

[00:21:50] Basically all of the German populations

[00:21:52] That were living in the east

[00:21:54] Brand from the Russian troops

[00:21:56] And so she ended up here in Munich

[00:21:58] And my grandpa had survived the Holocaust

[00:22:01] In Siberia actually

[00:22:03] And he was also also ended up in Munich

[00:22:07] And so they stayed there

[00:22:08] And I don't know if you read that article on Kandak

[00:22:11] I don't know how far down you went

[00:22:13] But I feel like it'd be interesting for you

[00:22:16] So my grandpa and my grandma married

[00:22:18] And my grandma was Catholic

[00:22:20] And my grandpa was Jewish

[00:22:22] And at the time just because

[00:22:24] Germany had lost the world doesn't mean

[00:22:26] That people stopped being antisemitic

[00:22:28] And so Jews were still very much ostracized

[00:22:32] And so if German women married a Jewish man

[00:22:35] That meant that she was also ostracized

[00:22:38] And so they lived in a community

[00:22:40] Where all the men were Jewish

[00:22:43] And all the women were German Catholic

[00:22:46] And so they really created their own community

[00:22:48] Where all of the kids were that

[00:22:51] And then the kids were not considered Jewish

[00:22:53] Because in Judaism you only Jewish

[00:22:56] If your mother was Jewish

[00:22:57] Right

[00:22:58] But then they all grew up with Jewish culture

[00:23:01] And celebrating Shabbat and all of that

[00:23:04] And then my mother much much later

[00:23:06] Married my father

[00:23:08] And it's the same for white German woman

[00:23:11] Married a black man

[00:23:12] Then she will be very ostracized

[00:23:14] And so my mom

[00:23:15] All of her friends

[00:23:18] White German women

[00:23:19] That were married to a black or brown men

[00:23:21] And so I

[00:23:22] Similar to her

[00:23:24] grew up in a society

[00:23:25] Or in a community

[00:23:27] Where all the kids were mixed

[00:23:30] And all the fathers were black

[00:23:31] And all the mothers were white

[00:23:33] And we had like a little world

[00:23:35] And so I find it really interesting

[00:23:37] How my mom really recreated that

[00:23:39] Just with a different

[00:23:40] Marginalized identity

[00:23:43] Do you think your mother was

[00:23:46] Was or is aware

[00:23:47] That she was repeating

[00:23:50] Essentially a pattern

[00:23:52] I think so

[00:23:54] Because I think my mom never felt

[00:23:57] Like she belongs to

[00:23:59] German society

[00:24:01] And so I guess she didn't have the desire

[00:24:04] To then belong

[00:24:06] So the flat that I'm now in

[00:24:07] Is my mom's flat and she bought it

[00:24:09] Where she bought it quite late

[00:24:10] When she was in her

[00:24:11] Boaties

[00:24:12] And she says that before she never

[00:24:14] Thought she's going to buy a flat in Germany

[00:24:16] Because people of Jewish heritage

[00:24:17] Or Jewish German people

[00:24:19] Kind of Loki expect

[00:24:21] That something is going to happen again

[00:24:22] And they just need to be ready

[00:24:24] This time to get out before it happens

[00:24:26] And so she never thought that she's going to buy a flat here

[00:24:29] Because what the Nazis come back

[00:24:31] And you're going to lose everything

[00:24:33] But then she really grew into being German

[00:24:35] And then she felt like no I've lived here

[00:24:37] All of my life

[00:24:38] I'm going to be here

[00:24:39] And so she bought this flat

[00:24:41] But I think when she was younger

[00:24:42] She didn't feel like she's part of German society

[00:24:45] And so it was much more comfortable for her

[00:24:48] Probably to be in a community

[00:24:50] That's like what she's known

[00:24:52] And I guess she had less barriers

[00:24:55] To be with people that are from outside of Germany

[00:24:58] Because that's what she grew up with

[00:25:01] So I think she was aware of it

[00:25:03] Yeah

[00:25:04] There's, I mean from both

[00:25:07] You should definitely write that book

[00:25:11] From both sides of your family

[00:25:12] It's fascinating

[00:25:13] Like there's so much complex history there

[00:25:17] Right

[00:25:18] But you said something that really caught my attention

[00:25:22] Just now we're talking about like

[00:25:24] Your mother's belonging

[00:25:26] Or lack thereof

[00:25:27] But then you said your mother grew into being German

[00:25:31] I guess I'm just wondering like

[00:25:32] How did that happen

[00:25:36] You know, I was just having dinner with my mom

[00:25:39] And I told her that we're going to spill

[00:25:40] Her secrets

[00:25:41] She was like

[00:25:41] Why doesn't she interview me

[00:25:42] Then if you're just going to tell

[00:25:44] Tell her about

[00:25:49] But I think

[00:25:51] Well this is something that I think

[00:25:53] When I went to the US this year for a while

[00:25:57] Culture does influence us much more than we think

[00:26:01] And so you as a non-German

[00:26:04] When you meet my mom, there's no doubt she's German

[00:26:07] She's so German

[00:26:08] She's a stereotype

[00:26:10] She's always a bit early

[00:26:13] Which is for her just on time

[00:26:15] She really doesn't like noise

[00:26:17] She's very, very reliable

[00:26:19] She doesn't forget things

[00:26:20] She's extremely helpful

[00:26:22] But she also struggles a bit with

[00:26:25] You know, and like a Sudanese room

[00:26:27] Where everybody's screaming

[00:26:28] And extremely extroverts

[00:26:29] And she's very like

[00:26:30] Quiet and German

[00:26:33] From my perspective

[00:26:35] There's no doubt that she's German

[00:26:36] But then from how she talks about herself

[00:26:39] She really doesn't feel that

[00:26:41] Because she grew up thinking

[00:26:44] That she's very different

[00:26:45] And she grew up

[00:26:46] Not around people who

[00:26:49] Grow up Christian

[00:26:50] And both of the parents are German

[00:26:52] And their parents are rooted here

[00:26:54] And like their grandparents have already lived here

[00:26:57] You know

[00:26:58] And so I think

[00:27:00] That that was the prevalent feeling

[00:27:02] But the longer she lives here

[00:27:04] And the more she gets used to this life

[00:27:07] She can't fight it

[00:27:08] You just become German

[00:27:09] The same way that if I now probably move to Brazil

[00:27:12] In 30 years

[00:27:14] I will be really, really part of the social fabric

[00:27:17] Of wherever I'm living there

[00:27:18] Even though I'm not even from there

[00:27:20] That makes sense

[00:27:21] So I feel like my mom just

[00:27:23] She lived in Australia for half a year

[00:27:26] Once

[00:27:27] And other than that

[00:27:28] She's always lived in Germany

[00:27:30] So even if she wasn't actually German

[00:27:32] She would be German by now

[00:27:34] Yeah, she's just part of this now

[00:27:36] But she doesn't feel it

[00:27:38] I think

[00:27:39] But then also I guess

[00:27:41] Having children that live abroad

[00:27:43] And visiting us

[00:27:44] And feeling so far in there

[00:27:46] Probably made her also

[00:27:47] Realized that she's much more German than she thought she is

[00:27:50] Because when my mom visits me

[00:27:52] Egypt she really has a difficult time

[00:27:54] Even crossing the streets

[00:27:56] And my sister lives in Mexico

[00:27:59] And she has a difficult time

[00:28:00] Even thinking about going to Mexico

[00:28:03] So I think that maybe also made her feel like

[00:28:06] She is actually very rooted here

[00:28:08] And this is very much her comfort

[00:28:10] So even though

[00:28:11] Maybe she doesn't necessarily feel comfortable

[00:28:13] Around the majority of people

[00:28:16] Yeah, it's interesting how

[00:28:18] The distinction between fitting in and belonging

[00:28:20] Right

[00:28:21] Your mother fits into Germany

[00:28:24] In relation to other places

[00:28:25] Mm-hmm

[00:28:26] I mean what it sounds like

[00:28:28] It's not necessarily that she feels a strong sense of belonging there

[00:28:31] But it's just

[00:28:32] In terms of fitting in

[00:28:33] In comparison to

[00:28:34] Mexico or Egypt

[00:28:36] Or other places

[00:28:38] Yeah, that actually summarizes it perfectly

[00:28:42] How did your parents meet

[00:28:43] I was hoping you asked me

[00:28:49] Again, I was just telling my mom

[00:28:51] I'll tell her how you met

[00:28:52] And she's like you don't even know

[00:28:53] And I was like well

[00:28:54] You listen to the podcast later

[00:28:56] Because I know

[00:29:00] And I go back again

[00:29:02] One generation

[00:29:03] Because even there's such a parallel

[00:29:05] Between my mother and her own mother

[00:29:08] So

[00:29:09] After the end of World War II

[00:29:11] In 1945

[00:29:13] Obviously there were all these displaced persons

[00:29:16] And huge displaced persons camps

[00:29:18] And the biggest one was called Thurenbite

[00:29:21] And it was close to Munich

[00:29:23] And that's where my grandpa was

[00:29:25] And my grandma

[00:29:27] Had just moved there with her family

[00:29:30] And she decided to volunteer

[00:29:32] And cook at the camp

[00:29:34] We're now in the barrier

[00:29:36] In 1945 or six or seven or something like that

[00:29:39] And so my grandma was cooking

[00:29:42] And my grandpa must have really liked her food

[00:29:45] And so they fell in love

[00:29:47] In this displaced persons camp

[00:29:50] And just because it happened to be

[00:29:52] Close to Munich

[00:29:52] They just settled there

[00:29:54] And that's why my mom is from there

[00:29:56] And then

[00:29:57] My mom

[00:29:58] She studied social work

[00:30:01] First she studied physics

[00:30:02] And then the professors were so sexist

[00:30:04] That she dropped out

[00:30:06] And then she decided to study social work

[00:30:08] Which was much more fitting for a woman

[00:30:10] At the time

[00:30:11] And she started working with refugees

[00:30:14] In Nürnbeck

[00:30:15] Where I'm from

[00:30:16] Where I live currently

[00:30:18] It's two hours from Munich and much cheaper

[00:30:21] So a lot of people from Munich come and study here

[00:30:24] So she had gone to university here

[00:30:26] And then she started working at a home for science campus

[00:30:31] And my father

[00:30:33] Had studied in Egypt

[00:30:36] Marine communication

[00:30:37] And his older sister

[00:30:39] Who was married to a British man

[00:30:42] Was living in Nürnbeck at the time

[00:30:45] And they got him off flight

[00:30:48] To celebrate his graduation from university

[00:30:51] And so he came to Germany

[00:30:53] And then he really liked it

[00:30:55] And in the 90s

[00:30:56] Apparently you could still

[00:30:58] Flush down your passport

[00:31:00] In the toilet and pretend that you are

[00:31:03] And a silent seeker

[00:31:04] Because that's what my dad did

[00:31:06] And so he ended up in that silent seeker

[00:31:09] Because I think back then they didn't check

[00:31:11] Like they do now

[00:31:12] And in Sudan

[00:31:14] There's always some sort of war

[00:31:16] And my dad was going to go to the military

[00:31:18] Because he had finished university

[00:31:21] And he really didn't want to go to the military

[00:31:23] And that I think was the reason for him

[00:31:25] To ask for a silent here

[00:31:27] But then most of the people in the asylum seeking home

[00:31:31] Were there for good reasons

[00:31:33] And they were very often traumatised

[00:31:36] And struggling

[00:31:37] And my dad was not

[00:31:39] He had just flown there on the airplane

[00:31:41] And he spent most of his time

[00:31:42] And assist his house eating amazing food

[00:31:44] And he discovered clubbing

[00:31:46] And the good life of a 26 year old in Germany

[00:31:50] And he loved it

[00:31:51] But then he had to come and sleep at the asylum seeker home

[00:31:55] And spend some time there

[00:31:57] To show up

[00:31:59] And so he I guess liked my mom

[00:32:02] And so he would go to her office

[00:32:04] And ask her for the vacuum cleaner

[00:32:06] Very very often

[00:32:08] And so that kind of fostered

[00:32:11] To have conversations with him

[00:32:12] And then I guess she felt for it

[00:32:14] And so they again met in a very similar situation

[00:32:18] Yeah and then they got married

[00:32:21] And I think it's just really interesting

[00:32:23] Because even how she met him

[00:32:24] So similar to how her mother met her father

[00:32:27] Hmm, that's so interesting

[00:32:30] Yeah

[00:32:31] Also interesting

[00:32:33] So then my dad obviously wanted to stay

[00:32:36] And ideally he'll get a passport or citizenship

[00:32:40] And then he learned German

[00:32:42] And then they got married

[00:32:43] So that he can stay

[00:32:45] Because my mom even though she didn't feel very German

[00:32:48] She was not ready to move to Sudan

[00:32:50] Or Egypt

[00:32:51] And so

[00:32:53] They got married and then they had me

[00:32:55] And after a few years my dad was eligible

[00:32:58] For German citizenship

[00:33:00] And so when he went to the

[00:33:04] Wherever you get that

[00:33:05] To the passport office

[00:33:07] I don't know

[00:33:08] My mom went with him

[00:33:09] And her passport had also run out

[00:33:12] And so she wanted to renew her

[00:33:14] And my dad wanted to get it

[00:33:16] And they told my mom that she's not German

[00:33:20] Because if you are born before 1975

[00:33:24] In Germany

[00:33:26] You are only German

[00:33:27] If your father is German

[00:33:29] But my mother's mother was German

[00:33:32] And my granddad actually never had citizenship

[00:33:35] After World War II he was a displaced person forever

[00:33:39] Had like a specific displaced person passport

[00:33:42] For a six and less passport

[00:33:44] And so my mom had to go through this whole process

[00:33:48] Of demanding her citizenship

[00:33:50] Because of course she's German

[00:33:52] And she's never lived anywhere else

[00:33:54] And then she got it

[00:33:55] But it was not so easy

[00:33:58] And I guess it was also a special case

[00:34:00] Because of course German has a huge debt

[00:34:02] To anybody of Jewish heritage

[00:34:04] But so my dad now tells everybody that

[00:34:06] My mom actually got the citizenship through him

[00:34:09] When actually he got the citizenship through her

[00:34:14] How interesting

[00:34:15] Wow, that's a water twist

[00:34:18] Yeah, I'm sure she did not expect that that morning

[00:34:22] But it's so funny because like

[00:34:24] She could have never known

[00:34:27] And also I think like

[00:34:29] To the point of there's often a misconception

[00:34:32] That like that the Arab world is

[00:34:33] Very patriarchal and

[00:34:35] You get everything through the father side right

[00:34:38] Um

[00:34:40] You're a person that far behind

[00:34:41] Like you're not talking about like 100 years ago here

[00:34:44] You're talking about like

[00:34:46] You were talking 75

[00:34:48] 75

[00:34:49] So yeah

[00:34:50] It's really not very recent

[00:34:53] Oh, I mean

[00:34:53] No, what I'm saying is

[00:34:55] It is not that long ago that Europe was also quite patriarchal

[00:34:59] Like you know, you get citizenship through

[00:35:01] The father and it's the father that counts

[00:35:03] And yeah for sure

[00:35:05] And also they it's not like they change

[00:35:07] They did it for my mom

[00:35:08] I guess because of her dad

[00:35:10] But then my dad has three cousins

[00:35:12] Who are exactly like me German Sudanese

[00:35:16] And their mother is German

[00:35:18] And their father is Sudanese

[00:35:21] And they were born before 75

[00:35:23] And they have been fighting for their citizenship

[00:35:25] Who he is and they just don't get it

[00:35:28] Wow, they're just refusing

[00:35:30] Yeah and their mother is alive

[00:35:32] Well living in Germany

[00:35:33] And every time they want to go visit her

[00:35:35] Because they live in Sudan

[00:35:37] They have to go through a whole visa

[00:35:39] Process and everything

[00:35:41] And they are exactly like me

[00:35:43] They're just born earlier

[00:35:45] So it's still really problematic

[00:35:47] And it's not something that Germany is willing to revise

[00:35:51] So yeah, I think that it's very patriarchal still

[00:35:55] I have to say I'm like really shocked to hear that

[00:35:58] I guess I was meant to say

[00:35:59] Yeah and they also speak German

[00:36:01] You know they do everything that I do

[00:36:04] They speak German

[00:36:05] They are German

[00:36:06] Their mother is German

[00:36:07] They go to Germany

[00:36:08] They were born in Munich actually

[00:36:11] Wow

[00:36:13] That's so interesting

[00:36:14] Because like I'm thinking of

[00:36:16] Myself as a Brazilian

[00:36:18] In my Brazilian side of the family is very mixed

[00:36:20] But like part of the

[00:36:22] Ancestry and heritage is from Portugal

[00:36:25] Like as a Brazilian

[00:36:26] I can clean Portuguese citizenship

[00:36:28] Even though my heritage goes back

[00:36:30] Like a couple of generations

[00:36:32] Like I've never been to Portugal

[00:36:34] You know

[00:36:35] But it's very interesting if someone born

[00:36:37] In Germany

[00:36:38] German mother

[00:36:40] Still can't seem to get German citizenship

[00:36:42] Like that's really shocking to hear actually

[00:36:45] Yeah

[00:36:47] Okay, so that's

[00:36:48] That's how your parents met

[00:36:50] Yeah

[00:36:52] So how did your parents' families react to their union

[00:36:57] That is a very interesting question

[00:37:00] But I should write down and ask

[00:37:02] This is exactly where my crisis comes

[00:37:05] And am I going to throw the Germans under the bus

[00:37:07] You know

[00:37:08] But I just hope they don't hear this for their own sake

[00:37:11] And my German family is very racist

[00:37:16] Even though they are of Jewish heritage

[00:37:18] That doesn't mean that they are not racist

[00:37:20] And my grandma

[00:37:24] Bless her

[00:37:24] She was actually very open-minded

[00:37:26] She I think she was the most open-minded person in my family

[00:37:30] Her dream was always to actually move

[00:37:33] To Canada or Australia

[00:37:35] She had no interest living here

[00:37:37] But then my grandpa had already been all the way to Siberia and back

[00:37:40] Maybe we couldn't people go to move anywhere else

[00:37:44] So my grandma had never seen a black person in her life

[00:37:47] And my dad

[00:37:49] When he came over apparently

[00:37:51] She was so scared to talk to him

[00:37:54] But she really wanted him to feel comfortable

[00:37:57] And so she spent the entire weekend

[00:38:00] Or however long they visited

[00:38:01] Asking my mom like that she wanted

[00:38:04] That she want that is finally comfortable

[00:38:06] And so after two days my mom really exploded

[00:38:10] And just like screamed at her

[00:38:12] Asking yourself

[00:38:13] Asking me on top

[00:38:16] And then I guess that broke the barrier

[00:38:18] And my grandma really really loved my dad

[00:38:22] And then my parents are divorced

[00:38:24] And so when they got divorced

[00:38:26] That didn't change how much my grandma loved him

[00:38:28] And my mom was really salty about it

[00:38:30] Yes

[00:38:31] I think she felt like she's not being supported enough

[00:38:34] Because my dad is very charming and nice

[00:38:36] But I do think that especially because they're divorced

[00:38:40] That really reinforced my family stereotypes

[00:38:44] Of this African man who can't be trusted

[00:38:48] And who is a cheater

[00:38:51] And who is not a good partner to build your life with

[00:38:54] And all of these assumptions that they have

[00:38:56] They still have them

[00:38:58] Like they don't maybe explicitly say it

[00:39:00] But they say it in some ways

[00:39:02] So I think that they were just confused

[00:39:06] And maybe they didn't see the appeal

[00:39:09] And they are very polite people

[00:39:13] And they have always treated us really like we're family

[00:39:16] I've never felt like my family loves me less

[00:39:19] So anything but definitely they really project their racism

[00:39:23] On to us

[00:39:25] My sister and I have so many issues

[00:39:27] Just with comments they make

[00:39:30] So I think they were just your typical racist family

[00:39:33] That's not hostile

[00:39:34] But also not willing to learn anything

[00:39:38] They literally don't know anything about Sudan

[00:39:40] I don't know if they even know where on the map is

[00:39:43] They just know it's in Africa

[00:39:45] And they know they don't want to go

[00:39:46] That's all they know

[00:39:48] And then my dad's family

[00:39:52] It's a much more difficult answer

[00:39:55] Because I know he was with his sister

[00:39:58] My aunt

[00:39:59] That's the one that I write about

[00:40:01] And the story

[00:40:02] Even the proverbs

[00:40:04] But yeah that one

[00:40:05] She really loves my mom

[00:40:07] And she was really happy

[00:40:10] And then I have another aunt in Ghana

[00:40:12] In Ghana

[00:40:13] In Canada

[00:40:14] And he was a father

[00:40:15] And she also really loves my mom

[00:40:18] And those are the ones that met my mom

[00:40:20] And the rest I guess never met her

[00:40:22] Because my mom never went to Sudan

[00:40:24] And they never came

[00:40:27] So I don't know

[00:40:28] I have no idea what their reaction was

[00:40:30] I know that my dad

[00:40:31] When I was born sent in my letter

[00:40:33] And that picture of me

[00:40:35] But again I highly doubt they know

[00:40:36] That she's of Jewish heritage

[00:40:39] And so I don't know

[00:40:41] That's a very sensitive topic

[00:40:43] Yeah it's a very sensitive topic

[00:40:45] Especially because they

[00:40:48] I guess unless they really know the details

[00:40:50] They will just be so confused

[00:40:52] Like do I count as Muslim

[00:40:54] Or do I count as Jewish

[00:40:56] If my mom was actually Jewish

[00:40:58] Because then there'd be like a clash

[00:41:00] And there isn't because my mom isn't actually Jewish

[00:41:03] Because you can't

[00:41:05] You don't inherit Judaism through your dad

[00:41:07] But you're not Christian

[00:41:09] Unless you are baptized

[00:41:12] And so my mom is not baptized

[00:41:14] So my mom is nothing

[00:41:17] And so I am technically Muslim

[00:41:21] But then you have to really know the details of that

[00:41:24] And if you don't

[00:41:25] They could easily seem like there's a dilemma

[00:41:28] In Judaism the religion is passed down

[00:41:31] Through the mother

[00:41:32] And in Islam the religion is passed out

[00:41:35] Through the father

[00:41:36] I also assume because there's all of this

[00:41:40] Internalized colonialism

[00:41:42] That anybody that marries a white person

[00:41:45] Wins

[00:41:46] And so I don't think they'd be too unhappy

[00:41:49] To be honest

[00:41:50] Because there's a lot of internalized

[00:41:53] Self-hate and people don't want to be black

[00:41:56] And I'm only half black

[00:41:58] So that's great

[00:42:00] And I have a European passport

[00:42:03] That's great

[00:42:04] And I speak European languages

[00:42:06] So I think that they would be fine

[00:42:09] With it to be honest

[00:42:10] I don't think they'd mind too much

[00:42:13] Because they really have those hierarchies

[00:42:15] And I'm also treated as like

[00:42:17] Somebody very high up in the hierarchy

[00:42:19] When I go to Sudan

[00:42:21] So I feel like

[00:42:22] All of that is wrong

[00:42:24] But it definitely worked

[00:42:25] In my dad's favor

[00:42:26] And my mom's favor

[00:42:27] And my father

[00:42:31] So your name is Amuna Wagner

[00:42:35] Wagner is your father's name?

[00:42:37] No

[00:42:38] Actually it's so interesting

[00:42:40] I just

[00:42:41] Again, I just spoke to my parents about this two days ago

[00:42:44] So

[00:42:45] Wagner is my mother's name

[00:42:48] Because my father's name is Abdallah

[00:42:51] And my mom really didn't want me to have an

[00:42:54] Arabic name

[00:42:55] Because I was going to grow up in Germany

[00:42:57] And there's a lot of racism

[00:42:58] And if you have like an Arabic

[00:43:01] Or Muslim sounding name

[00:43:03] Then it's much more difficult

[00:43:05] And even my dad

[00:43:07] Took my mother's name after they got married

[00:43:09] Because it was much easier for him

[00:43:11] To get jobs that way

[00:43:12] So his name is Abdallah Wagner

[00:43:15] So my mom really

[00:43:17] She knew from the beginning

[00:43:18] That her children are going to have her last name

[00:43:21] Also for a feminist reason

[00:43:23] Actually

[00:43:24] But then my dad was allowed to name us

[00:43:28] For a first name

[00:43:30] I'm glad that's my name

[00:43:31] Because I think it really would have made my life

[00:43:34] More difficult unfortunately

[00:43:35] To live in Europe and be called Amuna Abdullah

[00:43:41] So the sticks is to the untranslatable word

[00:43:44] And I wanted to ask you

[00:43:46] One or two words

[00:43:47] In a language that isn't English

[00:43:49] That doesn't translate into English

[00:43:51] So I've been thinking about this a lot

[00:43:54] And it is veilchmeads

[00:43:57] Which translates to

[00:43:59] World pain

[00:44:01] And it's just the feeling of being

[00:44:03] So sad about the state of the world

[00:44:07] It's like when you open Instagram

[00:44:09] And you just want to scroll

[00:44:11] And then you read these terrible things

[00:44:13] From all over the world

[00:44:14] And then you just close Instagram

[00:44:16] And sit there sad

[00:44:18] It's like a state of being in German

[00:44:21] And I relate to it a lot

[00:44:23] Is it a commonly used word

[00:44:25] In our generation now in Germany

[00:44:28] Yeah very

[00:44:30] So I could call a friend and say

[00:44:32] How are you?

[00:44:32] And then they'll be like

[00:44:34] You know

[00:44:35] I'm just having veilchmeads

[00:44:36] And then I know exactly what they're going through right now

[00:44:41] And I don't even have to ask

[00:44:42] What did you see?

[00:44:43] Did you read about this place or that place

[00:44:45] Just

[00:44:46] You know it could be anything

[00:44:47] Could be any use from anywhere in the world

[00:44:50] Or from down the road

[00:44:53] Can I be like a personal grievance

[00:44:55] Like you lost someone or a relationship

[00:44:57] Entity or something like that

[00:45:01] I think maybe if that leads you to be upset about everything

[00:45:05] You know how

[00:45:06] You feel sad about something that happened to you

[00:45:08] And then you feel like

[00:45:09] Oh what the whole world

[00:45:11] Everybody's suffering

[00:45:12] And then it takes you to this

[00:45:14] Like bigger stage where you just feel like we're all in this together

[00:45:18] You know

[00:45:18] Or you feel bad about something

[00:45:20] And then you remind yourself

[00:45:22] People in different places have it even worse

[00:45:24] And then you just feel bad about everyone

[00:45:27] So interesting

[00:45:28] It is

[00:45:30] Although it's describing a negative emotion

[00:45:33] It's describing a negative emotion

[00:45:35] In taking other people's feelings into account

[00:45:38] Or taking other people's situations into account

[00:45:41] Yeah

[00:45:42] Yeah it's like a collective pain

[00:45:45] Collective that you feel

[00:45:47] And I think also

[00:45:49] Feeling like there's nothing you can do about it is a huge part

[00:45:53] Because if you know and injustice

[00:45:56] That's happening and you can do something about it

[00:45:58] Maybe you feel anger

[00:46:00] And then you feel motivated

[00:46:02] But if it's just this random thing you read about

[00:46:05] I don't know

[00:46:06] Somebody being executed in a round for protesting

[00:46:09] And there's nothing you can do right now

[00:46:11] Then you just feel bad

[00:46:13] And it's just

[00:46:15] A feeling that will not really be followed by action

[00:46:19] At least not in that moment

[00:46:23] Does existential dread kind of portray a similar emotion?

[00:46:30] Yes

[00:46:32] I think the word existential is a bit

[00:46:35] It's more focused also on

[00:46:37] One's existence in the world

[00:46:40] And velcmets is really

[00:46:42] It has nothing to do with a person

[00:46:45] It's just really the world

[00:46:48] Like you could be happy

[00:46:50] You wouldn't have velcmets

[00:46:51] If there wasn't so much suffering

[00:46:53] You would

[00:46:54] Happy to be here

[00:46:55] Do you think the fact that we don't have an equivalent word in English means that

[00:47:02] The Anglo-Saxon

[00:47:04] Side of the world is a bit more selfish

[00:47:07] We don't consider the world suffering as much

[00:47:11] That's a good question

[00:47:13] I don't know to be honest

[00:47:16] I don't know how old that word is velcmets

[00:47:20] It sounds very poetic to me

[00:47:23] But I do relate it with our generation

[00:47:26] So I don't know how historically

[00:47:30] Somebody who colonized half of the world would feel velcmets

[00:47:34] Because they are the perpetrator of it

[00:47:38] But then Germany also colonized

[00:47:40] So I don't know

[00:47:42] Not quite the same way though

[00:47:43] Yeah

[00:47:44] It's true the scale is definitely less

[00:47:48] You recently just published a

[00:47:51] little magazine or a scene

[00:47:54] On Kandaka blog

[00:47:55] Do you want to tell me a little bit about that?

[00:47:58] Yes, I'd love to

[00:48:00] I'm very proud of it

[00:48:01] It's called High Priestess in Lothides

[00:48:03] It's a scene

[00:48:05] A scene is basically an anti-capitalist magazine

[00:48:09] So it's a very small publication to circulate ideas

[00:48:14] For the sake of circulating ideas

[00:48:17] And I worked on it for months with my writing class

[00:48:19] at the Kyra Institute of Liberal Arts and Sciences

[00:48:23] Where I held a writing workshop for three months

[00:48:26] And out of those free rights many students

[00:48:30] chose their favorite free right

[00:48:32] And then we worked on it and edited it

[00:48:33] And then we found so many visual artists

[00:48:37] That created artworks

[00:48:40] As an answer to what they read

[00:48:42] And then we put it all together

[00:48:43] And now we have this really beautiful collection

[00:48:46] Of stories and poetry and artwork

[00:48:50] Written by so many people in Cairo

[00:48:52] But also all over the world from Canada to Europe

[00:48:56] And

[00:48:58] Yeah, it talks about so many interesting topics

[00:49:02] And it's inspired by feminist readings

[00:49:04] That we work through in the course

[00:49:08] And yeah, I think it's really worth to be read

[00:49:12] What are some of the topics that you cover?

[00:49:15] We cover home as a topic

[00:49:18] What is home? How do you create a home

[00:49:21] And also where in yourself do you find home

[00:49:24] So if your brain was a place

[00:49:26] What would it look like

[00:49:28] Which is very interesting

[00:49:29] Because you have these texts that really invite you into people's brains

[00:49:35] As if it was a house

[00:49:37] Those are some of my favorites

[00:49:40] Yeah, it's really a lot

[00:49:42] And it goes all the way from imagining ancestors

[00:49:46] And getting advice from them to imagining a better future

[00:49:49] And everything in between

[00:49:51] And it's very spiritual sometimes

[00:49:53] And it's very vulnerable

[00:49:59] And I feel like there's just really a lot in there

[00:50:05] So that's a wrap for today

[00:50:07] If you've enjoyed this conversation

[00:50:08] Don't forget to hit subscribe

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[00:50:12] The in-between-ish pod is created and hosted by Beatrice Norr

[00:50:17] The behind the scenes magic is things too

[00:50:19] Habibat Ruby

[00:50:21] And original music is composed

[00:50:22] And produced by Melik and Miseidi

[00:50:25] I love hearing from our listeners

[00:50:27] So feel free to reach out to me anytime

[00:50:30] Join us every other Tuesday and remember

[00:50:32] The quest for belonging never ends

[00:50:35] And you are not alone

[00:50:37] Keep exploring, keep embracing

[00:50:39] And keep celebrating that in-betweenish life