how has your gender impacted your sense of belonging? — with Malik

[00:00:00] This is a place where we talk about belonging Welcome to the Inbetweenish I'm Beatriz Nour, your host Raised in three cultures, two religions and four languages Trust me, I get the chaos On the show, I chat with those who have lived that Inbetweenish life

[00:00:20] Of a here and of a there Building bridges across cultures And of course, the age-old quest to finding home Today I'm talking to Medican Missidi, an old friend And at the time of recording he was traveling through Vietnam

[00:00:37] So you might occasionally hear some honking or neighborly dogs barking in the background Melik is usually a base between New York City and Cairo Where he embraces his bicultural background He is fueled by creativity in the audio world As a multi-instrumental composer and producer

[00:00:57] He writes in performance, new classical piano pieces For a connection and collective healing Oh and if you recognize this name, that's because Medik created the music for Inbetweenish Both for season one and season two

[00:01:10] Working with Medican this very important part of the Inbetweenish part identity was such a gift Melik and I go way back, we used to be in band class together actually So in a way, music has always connected us

[00:01:24] Medik's music is best described as thought provoking nostalgic with a hint of sadness You can find links to his re-music and his art in the show notes below In honor of Pride Month in June I thought it was a perfect time to publish this episode

[00:01:40] So I asked that you please listen with kindness and an open mind And now in his own words, let's ask Medik What is your ish? All right, that's a good question I feel like I'm in-between a lot of different things

[00:01:57] First would be the two cultures that I grew up between Injip and the US So that's always been an in-betweenish for me Because I was born in the US and then I lived there for a few years And then me and my parents moved back to Egypt

[00:02:13] And then I grew up there for the rest of my school years in university And then I went back to the US and so now I'm really kind of in-between both and um Yeah, I feel like my life was constantly been between these two countries

[00:02:30] So this is one of my issues and The second ish would be Between genders because I'm transgender so I also have Very different experiences I was born female Transition to males so that's been a really big issue as well for me

[00:02:54] So yeah, I would say those are my two in-between's Those are two big issues I would say between cultures and between genders I mean being between genders the way you put it

[00:03:07] Is very tricky I would say considering the cultures right and I'm talking specifically about the Egyptian culture um So I wanted to go back to the beginning so let's go back to the US

[00:03:19] You said you were you were born in the US you lived there for a couple of years I mean I don't know how old you were but like how was that transition for you at the time between Like an American culture where everything's in English

[00:03:32] I don't know if you guys book Arabic at home and then moving to Egypt and being presumably closer to around family more and It's just a very different change in scenery as a child

[00:03:44] Yeah, I honestly don't remember it much because we moved back when I was like three or four So the only memories I have actually of being in the US are some like big memories of being in preschool

[00:03:58] But nothing nothing that really stands out to me so I feel like I was too young to really process the differences

[00:04:07] But I mean it's different than because a lot of a lot of people go to the US to like give birth to kind of like get this citizenship

[00:04:14] But that was not your case right with your family like your parents had already been living in the US and had moved their Prior to you being born. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Could you tell me a little bit about that? Yeah, so they they actually met in high school

[00:04:32] They were neighbors in Alexandria And so it was a very cute love story between them They like their families kind of knew each other So my paternal granddad studied with my maternal granddad. Oh wow

[00:04:46] So they kind of yeah, they kind of knew each other from before but my parents didn't necessarily know each other My dad knew my uncle But then He met my mom one time he was delivering some

[00:04:58] Package to their house or something and my mom answered the door and he it was love at first sight apparently And yeah, and then they've just I guess they they really moved into like the whole relationship and getting married

[00:05:14] They got married like the day after my mom's high school graduation. Oh wow. So they got married really young Yeah, really really young my dad's three years older than her so he was already in college in Alexandria

[00:05:26] But then after they got married they moved to the US and my dad continued College there and my mom started college there. So They lived in California for a while I think it was they lived there for seven years before they had me

[00:05:43] Yeah, so they were living there for quite some time and you know they graduated and had like full-time jobs there and stuff and then When I was three they decided to move back to Egypt

[00:05:54] I guess probably it's just because we're to you know to the culture and to the family and stuff So yeah, so they they basically lived there for ten years They moved back and then we'd go back every summer

[00:06:08] Because my mom's side of the family still lives in California So we would go every summer or every other summer Like whenever we had a big break basically and And I don't remember the actual move, but I remember being so upset that I wasn't living there

[00:06:24] I really didn't want to live in Egypt I think just because as a kid The US seems so fun and like there was that whole like Disneyland appeal because we were in California And I'm like I was such a Disney fan

[00:06:40] So I was like why would we live in Egypt like the food is so much better in California And it's just so much nicer and actually all my cousins lived in California at the time

[00:06:50] So I felt like even like family wise. I had more cousins in the US And I still didn't have any of my sisters yet, so So yeah, I guess I just felt like Egypt was kind of boring Comparative

[00:07:06] How funny because like I the first assumption I made which you know goes to sure I shouldn't think Some should they move back to Edo to be closer to family but like that's not necessarily the case because your mom's family was in the US

[00:07:19] Yeah, my dad's family was it was still in Alex But but we moved to Cairo like we moved straight to Cairo so we never really Right on God with them much like we'd go to them for a either for like you know some holidays and stuff

[00:07:33] But it's not like we're really with them like I know day to day basis What was your first language at home that you spoke I think it was English honestly because English is just it just comes a lot easier to me

[00:07:49] And I think also a big part of it is that it's probably the language I learned first like in preschool and Can there garden just everything around me was in English? Yeah

[00:07:59] My parents would speak to me in Arabic but I I feel like I would always respond in English because I thought more comfortable with that And then once we moved to Egypt my mom really made like an active effort to

[00:08:10] Have me speaking Arabic and whenever I didn't want to or whenever I speak to an English you wouldn't respond She pretend to see I couldn't understand what I'm saying So I would get super frustrated about it

[00:08:24] I was find it interesting like in in dual or or more language households Like what the parents gravitate towards and it wants context Because I think that that really shapes the person or at the time the child you know

[00:08:40] vis-a-vis their cultures and the the languages and and what those languages mean to them I mean now that you've lived in both places. What would you say is your relationship to both of these cultures and countries? That's a good question I feel like for the longest time

[00:09:00] I felt like I just I Related more to the US and just American culture, but then I feel like it's always like Where you are right like it's based on what your the context that you're in

[00:09:13] So growing up in Egypt. I felt like oh I feel like I would fit in way more in the US and For some reason it was easier for me to make connections there

[00:09:22] But then when I moved to New York I suddenly felt like no I'm actually so Egyptian like I'm definitely not So I feel like wherever I go I kind of feel like an outsider

[00:09:35] But at the same time like of course there's it's also like a privilege to be able to feel like you can belong to two different places, you know But that's a thing like it's it's very tricky right because

[00:09:50] I feel like it's it is both a blessing and a curse When you do belong to different places It's a blessing of course because you can blend in and you can be a part of this and you could be a part of that

[00:10:00] But it's also a curse because most of the people I've talked to on the podcast have pretty much always felt like an outsider And There's something there like I don't think that's a coincidence Yeah, I feel like that's always the case like you know when I'm in Egypt

[00:10:17] I feel like I'm not really that Egyptian or I'm not like Egyptian enough And then I go to the US I'm like but I'm not also I'm not American I wouldn't call myself American

[00:10:28] So yeah, it's always like being stuck in the in between and kind of finding your your confidence on there. I guess And it's funny like the the places you mentioned in the US that you lived in either as a child or when you move back

[00:10:44] are two of the most liberal Places in the US and the most diverse I would say I don't know you can be here for long But LA and New York are like You know very different from each other, but very diverse, you know

[00:11:02] So I think even where you are within a country impacts How we feel right right? Yeah, that's very true actually of only ever lived in big cities that have a lot of different

[00:11:14] You know people from everywhere so I think it definitely would have been harder if I wasn't in some major city Absolutely yeah, I completely agree So I want to go back to well, maybe this won't be the very beginning

[00:11:28] But I want to go back to your first identity crisis if you remember How old you were what it was about how you dealt with this with that at the time? So yeah, I was wondering if you could tell me a bit about that

[00:11:41] So I think I think growing up I always knew that there was something different about me But I didn't exactly know what it was like it was really hard for me to pinpoint what the actual issue was So I feel like I didn't have like an actual

[00:11:58] Crisis moment that I would remember but I feel like just looking back There are so many moments where I realized that I don't see myself away other people see me I think my whole child or basically was like one big

[00:12:12] Identity crisis of like how come people don't see me the way That I see myself or why did they expect me to do these things that I feel like I shouldn't be doing so like an example

[00:12:23] I guess would be I grew up looking like a tomboy and every summer we'd go back to California and my My aunts and my grandma would be like, why are you wearing this? Like why don't you ever want to put earrings on or jewelry or

[00:12:37] What did you go your hair out you look so lovely and every time I'm like, oh, this is so not me Like why did they keep like focusing on this issue so much?

[00:12:47] And I guess I always thought that it would my life would have been so much cooler or like I would have been like

[00:12:54] I would have liked it more if I was born a boy but I never really knew what gender was or like any kind of gender identity Like I had no like dialogue about that my brain and I also didn't know that chance people exist

[00:13:07] So for me it wasn't really something that you can like think about more than oh, I wish I was born like that. I'm not like this So I guess I didn't really have a true identity crisis until maybe I hit puberty and then I was like okay

[00:13:22] This is really not what I want to be And you know your body just changed as so much in puberty and I feel like For a lot of trans people that's really the time that They really

[00:13:36] Really just a difficult time for them because it's when your body basically is going through all these hormonal changes and If you don't identify with the sex you were born with then it's just very It's very difficult

[00:13:50] And still at the time I didn't know exactly like what to do about it or Why I was feeling like that all I knew is that I was just really feeling Super uncomfortable in my body and just like I really didn't like the way close fit me and

[00:14:06] Everything just felt kind of mismatched but I still couldn't really put my my finger on it until much later Like when I went to the US and studied there for a bit Do you remember when you

[00:14:19] Because I mean you went through puberty in Egypt, you know, there's even less dialogue about this, you know? So do you remember when you first discovered the term transgender like when you understood the concept of it? Yeah, actually I remember

[00:14:37] It was much later in life. I think like I knew kind of that Transgender is a word but I didn't really know like anyone in my life necessarily or anyone that knows anyone That is trans so it was very difficult for me to access that community

[00:14:53] I think really my only frame of reference at that time and school was were like the TV shows that would watch Online like grief for example That was really the first time yeah That was the first time I saw like actual like queer characters and

[00:15:13] You know, they made it really okay, you know versus in Egypt if I felt like I feel like maybe it's just like a crush on a girl that I have like I would definitely not entertain that thought

[00:15:25] I was I was very like very much against it, you know So I think I mean it was like a big Turning point in my life because it just made me see that there's a whole other world out there where it's not so shameful and

[00:15:39] You could talk about it and you can actually celebrate it So I think it was a long time until I actually realized that that you you can like transition

[00:15:47] It was actually when I went to I did a semester abroad when I was in college and it was in Boston And they had a lot of Trans people there actually as students and they would have these panels where they would talk

[00:16:01] I remember I went to one of them It was like three or four different Trans guys and so they had all been born female and They were all in different stages of their transition And so it was kind of like a Q and A

[00:16:18] Session and then they also just like you know talked about themselves a little bit And so some you know have just socially transitioned where they use like he and pronouns

[00:16:30] With their friends or you know whoever they feel comfortable with and then others had done like different kinds of surgeries And then some of them had only taken testosterone So it was really such a like a spectrum of different people on the on this trans spectrum

[00:16:47] And I was I was mind blown. I think that was the moment when I realized this is exactly what I'm feeling and everything that they're talking about is Is my life basically and it was the first time where that actually right clicked for me

[00:17:00] And up until that point I just knew that I didn't really feel comfortable And I knew that I liked women So I knew I was somewhere in that LGBT Group but I didn't know like where exactly and then once I went back to Egypt

[00:17:17] It was very difficult like after knowing that there is this option it was hard to go back and realize that I'm still in this community that doesn't even talk about this and

[00:17:27] You know I never even knew that there was something called gender identity and like while I was living in Egypt so Going back it just felt like it was really impossible to To like to do that to either like transition or even talk about transition because I

[00:17:42] Think at the time nobody really knew what that was Do you think that drove your decision to move back to the US after graduating university? Yeah, definitely. I think I had like a pretty nice life in Egypt

[00:18:00] Other than this whole gender crisis, but if I didn't have it, I think I would have liked to stay in Egypt Just because you know I liked my my home. I really like Spending time with my family and my sisters and my friends

[00:18:16] And I was already with like teaching music at a school there So I could have I could have easily stayed there but just this this thing that was so huge in my head But only in my head and I knew that I had to Explore it more

[00:18:31] That really led me to moving back to the to the US yeah, and I guess the US offered that That openness to explore this topic more into Discover other things whether it's about the community or about yourself

[00:18:48] Yeah, no, definitely. I feel like at least there I can at least like talk about it or You know talk to people who've been through the same thing or at least go to a

[00:18:57] Therapist you know that has some experience with chance like clients and stuff like that because I went to so a bunch of different therapists in Egypt But they all didn't really know. I feel like what to how to help me

[00:19:10] Some of them were just downright bad and like told me that I should try like dating man or something to see if I can change But others were You could tell that they're trying to help but they're they're more like trying to learn

[00:19:25] They were trying to learn from me like what I was feeling so I felt like that didn't really help me much And I couldn't make a lot of progress with that so I moved to California because we have we had family there and stuff

[00:19:39] So yeah, I kind of started the new life there. I socially transitioned first and the job that I was at I asked them to all use like he him pronouns and Then I went to a therapist that has you know experience with this

[00:19:53] And she was really really great. She helped me so much and Yeah, and then it just gave me the liberty to Kind of just experiment and see do I feel comfortable

[00:20:05] With these pronouns is this like the direction that I want to go in do I want to take you know Do I want to do like a physical transition? So yeah, it was it was a great place to just

[00:20:17] Feel like there's not all this pressure to just conform and look This one type of way and especially in Egypt. It was really Difficult to just do what you want to do because everybody knows you in the neighborhood and It's very like family based so

[00:20:34] It just didn't really feel like I could Explore that aspect to myself without Everyone else looking at me here commenting or you know Having like my parents friends ask why I look so different So yeah, I think definitely California was a great

[00:20:54] Place for me to explore that and realize that I actually do want to do this Yeah, I think it's it's it's it's hard. I think to to be in Egypt and to kind of This identity crisis you know

[00:21:12] I think Egypt in general. I mean not specifically when it comes to this topic but Egypt in general Egyptian society is unforgiving when you're different But when you are different in a context that society doesn't even like

[00:21:25] Sometimes even a knowledge that this can can be a thing, you know like it's just like a non-topic We don't talk about this, you know It makes it incredibly hard But you know what I'm I really glad that the the US and California offered a

[00:21:44] Safe haven to kind of like explore these topics And a safe environment and that you are still able to go back to Egypt and enjoy Egypt Yeah, I think that's Admiral

[00:21:58] But I definitely do feel like super grateful to have even had this option like I know so many people who can't leave Egypt And so it's it's much more difficult and thankfully I have you know

[00:22:09] I'm a US citizen so I could just go and like try that out and Just easily get a job there So yeah, it's it's It's strange because doing that actually made me lose my Egyptian citizenship Because there's no way to like legally change your name or your

[00:22:29] Your sex on the national idea passport At least not in an easy way. I think you have to go through like the us hard and they have to approve your whole Like transition and you have to do like specific surgeries and stuff so it's a very invasive process

[00:22:46] And Basically I can't I only have my old like my passport in my old name Which really doesn't look like me anymore. So So yeah, so now I have to go in as a tourist actually So now I'm just forever in this in between

[00:23:02] Just like having this tourist Status are like this for inner status and then If I want to stay longer I have to either pay like the The visa extension penalty thing or I have to just go somewhere and come back

[00:23:17] But it's just so strange to me because they think I think there they think every time I leave that I'm trying to avoid the Army Okay, I see yeah, so they think that I have like an Egyptian passport, but I'm not entering and exiting with it

[00:23:34] Just so I don't get drafted which is a whole other thing right like yeah I just like I left one world and I went into a whole other world of problems But hopefully I think now that I'm all the

[00:23:48] I'm all the dirty I think they're gonna stop asking that Yeah, it's I mean that didn't even cross my mind but of course that is a very big problem for men in Egypt trade

[00:23:59] Like there's so many different specifications but like yes you have to go to the army If you have siblings that are boys and then and if you don't you have to also go ahead and prove it

[00:24:11] It's not like easy as a process exactly. Yeah, so you need to get like those exemption papers and stuff But I don't even have like papers to begin with to get exemption papers How did you feel the first time you went to Egypt as a non Egyptian?

[00:24:27] I feel like it was a bit nerve-wracking because I didn't know if I should pretend that I'm not Egyptian and like not understand Arabic or if I should just Be honest and say that I like my parents are Egyptian, but I don't have an Egyptian passport

[00:24:39] But somehow it also made me feel safer You know just in case anything came up and I had to leave like and I knew that I could leave

[00:24:47] So that was very comforting for me to know but yeah, it was weird. It was weird. I was weird coming again and I like I feel like people didn't believe me because I look very Egyptian to them

[00:24:58] And my name is Melek, so they always asked me coming again like an Arabic they asked me like where am I from? I'm going to say Like the US and then they say where is your dad from and my dad's name is also my middle name

[00:25:13] Which is in my passport and it's Arabic so I say like I was born in the US and I've been living there

[00:25:20] And so they keep asking a few times and I just I feel like I'm I always have to act and pull off this show of me not knowing

[00:25:29] Or not me not going to Egypt before like maybe my parents are Egyptian, but I've never been to Egypt and you know I'm coming to visit the motherland and whatnot I usually don't stay longer than a month anyway, so I haven't had that visa problem for a while

[00:25:45] But it's definitely something that's Kind of an obstacle like if I did want to live in Egypt, I'd have to figure out how to how to do it You mentioned something there and like you touched upon like your second name being your dad's name

[00:25:59] That's how it is in the Egyptian context, but Your name is Melek and Melek in the US is quite unfamiliar to the US at least. It's not a very Western name

[00:26:12] So I'm wondering how that was for you in the US. I understand you were between California and New York so those are You know more open places, but did you ever face any discrimination for your racial identity

[00:26:29] I was actually surprised that people can't really say Melek in the US which is really weird for me It's just it sounds very heavy in their mouth, but actually whenever people read my name they read it as Melek

[00:26:41] And I think in New York it's a very popular like African American man So I don't know honestly, I think it's hard to tell if I've experienced. I feel like definitely sometimes Especially in the beginning of my transition

[00:26:55] I felt like I had a hard time with like a lot of different things like one example Would I was used to bike everywhere in New York and suddenly I hear like a police car

[00:27:07] And I don't think it's related to me at all, but I just keep biking and then five minutes later The thing is still going the siren. Oh no, I look back and the police is like on the microphone saying you with the bike stop

[00:27:20] And like I don't know what I did wrong, but suddenly it feels like I'm going to jail or something like the way she's talking to me It's so crazy And then she stops me and she takes my ID and

[00:27:32] She's like is there reason why you haven't stopped the whole time? I was like no, I like honestly I didn't know it was for me and I was just biking But apparently she had stopped me because I liked faster red light

[00:27:45] But she basically gave me five different tickets What for each red light that I crossed yeah? Yeah, it was really crazy. I have no idea and each one is as if they don't have like a difference between biking and Car like bikes and cars

[00:28:03] So yeah, now I have to go and like go to court for all of this even though every day I look and I see people crossing the red like red lights on their bikes

[00:28:12] So I feel like that was definitely a moment where I was like this is really not fair And I think it was also in the beginning of my My transition so I kind of looked very In between Gender is a few up

[00:28:26] So yeah, I don't know if it was my name or if if it was like the way and looked But it was very strange even the people around me were like are she giving you a ticket? That's crazy Oh wow

[00:28:37] Yeah, oh I'm sorry here that I'm I'm sorry here. I'm very surprised that here that it was for like red lights like Yeah I wanted to ask like when you were going through Your transition and you're living in the US

[00:28:55] Did your relationship to Egypt or Egyptian culture or Egyptian society Change while you were going through that period of time like did you feel more distant from it? Did you feel more rejectful of it or Did it not affect your Egyptian side of your belonging?

[00:29:16] No, I think that definitely affected it I feel like my relationship with Egypt has been so up and down Ever since I was young actually Just because when I was younger

[00:29:29] I really didn't want to be there and then as a grew older and you know kind of had my own life I really liked it but then as I you know settled more into my

[00:29:39] Identity as a person I realized while this place is really not accepting of me and They don't even acknowledge like people like me So I felt like I really didn't belong there and

[00:29:50] The only way to you know figure out who I am or to move on to something to a life that I want to live The only way to do that is to leave and so after I left I was like

[00:30:02] Yeah, I really don't feel like I ever want to live in Egypt again Especially before I left I I didn't necessarily look very like feminine I would hear it every day like comments that are you a boy or girl or you or girl and it's just exhausting

[00:30:17] You know at some point like I just really didn't want to leave the house and I was just like this is so Stupid first of all that everyone is so up in your business all the time

[00:30:26] Yeah, it just really wasn't a life that I wanted to live and I couldn't see myself doing there at all So definitely after I left and I realized that people can like respect me for who I am They really made me hate Egypt so much

[00:30:39] I guess it's just a very bitter sweet relationship that I have with it because I have Really all of my memories going up in Egypt But at the same time like I know that they're not it's not just it's just not at home for me, you know

[00:30:53] So I think definitely after I transitioned and outwardly I looked Mail to them. I really see like the gender difference now Just like going out and walking in this tree it's such a crazy difference

[00:31:09] You know before like even with my parents not even like in society but when my parents I had a curfew And I had to be home by like this specific time otherwise they'd be super worried

[00:31:19] Now I could just go out and they don't even ask about me. I'm the one that messages then I'm like don't you want to know like I'm coming home Yeah, it's it just really reflects on how different Like life is there and it's just so different and

[00:31:36] It's not that my parents changed necessarily, but it's just the way that The way they know society reacts to to women This is man and I could just feel that in the streets you know like I feel like it's way more

[00:31:49] Reberating to walk now and I don't have to worry about any like anyone trying to harass me or something I could take a taxi normally like I don't know somehow. I feel like part of the community more Really all that's so interesting

[00:32:06] Yeah, like before I felt like no one it was like a strange mix of everyone's looking at me But at the same time no one is like seeing me that makes sense Yeah, oh that's a perfect way of describing women in need to see Yeah

[00:32:25] Yeah, so I think each of it or like this aside in Egypt to see me in many different forms like you know I tried to get into that female look

[00:32:36] So I definitely got like cat called and you know harassed in that way and then I also went through like my Exploratory phase where I kind of looked I don't know maybe like non-binary or something which really doesn't find Egypt and so that also is different because

[00:32:51] Everyone's up in my business and staring at me and asking like what gender I am and now people see me as male And they don't question anything. I just feel so much more accepted there

[00:33:02] Which is strange like it's a nice feeling but at the same time I know that if it wasn't Like this I definitely wouldn't have Wanted to come back, you know That's so interesting. Yeah, I mean I never even thought about it that way you experienced each of

[00:33:18] As different genders and that impacts your Experience with people with society. Yeah, that's Fascinating to me honestly Yeah, it was it was really crazy going back the first time and living that experience and was so crazy To and it made me even more angry

[00:33:40] At the difference, you know Yeah, because then it's not just I mean it's it's you've experienced both, you know So you know, it's not like I Think no one's gaslighting women and telling them in each of the

[00:33:55] Your experiences the same as men but you know there is this feeling of like I don't how to say this word in English but to the lausianny it's fine, you know And no it's very different It's so interesting that they've been able to experience that

[00:34:14] Yeah, it's it's strange because you know before I was like this is really not fair But it's not like you can go and like live in the other dunder and you know find out But now now that I have I can confirm that it really is not fair

[00:34:30] So So yeah, I think in a way I do like living in Egypt for Shor period to time. I don't know how it's feeling living there for like a while But every time I go back

[00:34:43] Part of me is like maybe I could live here and you know live the life that I wanted to live in Egypt, you know But at the same time yeah, I just know that I am having a good time because people

[00:34:53] Like I just fit into the way they accept gender, you know Like if I wanted to present is more non-binary or You know be somewhere more in the middle I definitely wouldn't have wanted to live there

[00:35:07] So I think just the fact that I kind of like transition like 180 degrees and now I fit somehow in the system So it's it's interesting The things either does have a small transgender community, right Within Egypt but like it's very

[00:35:26] I mean, I think they they face a lot of discrimination Yeah, but it's it is very interesting the the dynamics that Men and women are exposed to just for being either the preferred gender or the

[00:35:41] I don't even know to name like I what are women like it's not like the non-perferred gender But it's like definitely the less privileged gender And even like when you're saying like being non-binary in Egypt and what that implies And the kind of questions and the kind of

[00:35:57] Intrusiveness basically like yeah, it's just really suddenly you're like this outside it to them And they think that because you're so different there somehow better than you or something I think that's a thing though. I think Adjutant society is very uncomfortable with differences

[00:36:18] To some extent I think they really like very neat boxes Despite the chaos that is the country Which is a bit ironic but like yeah, if you you know if you're not the right

[00:36:30] Gender if you're not the right married into the right religion if you're not the right religion if you're not the right ethnicity You're not the right skin color like it makes it really hard. Yeah, that's not true Yeah You said something like it would never be a home

[00:36:44] I want to ask you if you would define what home is for you I think it's really a process that I'm I'm trying to still figure out. I definitely felt at home when I was living in New York

[00:36:56] Just because I spent six years there and I had really you know like settled into my gender identity and just all like all the different identities that I have

[00:37:06] So I think New York definitely was a really comfortable home for me and by home I guess I mean feeling like you can really be yourself Somewhere and just feel fully comfortable

[00:37:18] But at the same time New York is really super fast-paced and it really doesn't match me as a person like my character So it's it's difficult because I definitely prefer Egypt in that sense. You know like everything is so slow and Egypt and everyone really takes their time

[00:37:36] You know just having to work so many jobs to pay rent and So I guess New York was my home in the sense of like I had my my like apartment that I

[00:37:48] liked and my bubble of friends and you know, but in terms of living in the city and having to Be like constantly on that grind. I wouldn't I think that's what made me not fully comfortable and eventually left

[00:38:05] So I do they would be somewhere like in between yet that you know like that acceptance and diversity but also more chill and laid back and Less capitalists I guess In your response you've captured so many different things of what home like different definitions

[00:38:24] I guess that people gravitate towards towards when they talk about home One is like the feeling of you know freedom and expression and the other is you mentioned your your

[00:38:35] Flat there your apartments and your friends so and some of feeling at home and it's like the people that are around Who the people you surround yourself with the people that you again can be yourself around and then Other people describe home as like a physical space

[00:38:50] So it's interesting that in in your response about New York you touch them all these different things But also the reasons why you don't feel at home there so I thought that was quite interesting to hear that, you know

[00:39:02] Yeah, I feel like there's so many aspects to it obviously thinking of my my home and Egypt It's just a different kind of home. I guess like I I also have like my

[00:39:12] My circle of friends there and obviously my family that I can finally you know like be myself around and stuff So maybe now I would call it home but also just the general society is in very

[00:39:25] Like I don't feel you're comfortable like I would never share that I'm trans, you know like to someone on the street Yeah, just knowing that they wouldn't be very accepting of that is like a big barrier to me calling it home, you know

[00:39:38] I think one of the things that I'm realizing I guess is like there's a difference between a child at home and where You felt somewhat safe growing up Even if it didn't take all the boxes and then home home for the future

[00:39:56] I think some people don't even have the childhood home part You know like if they moved around all the time or they never had a solid base or anything

[00:40:06] But to me as as an outsider I guess like it kind of sounds like Egypt is that that child hold home representation But maybe not home of the future

[00:40:17] I want to ask you about you know, I mean because you did grow up in a household that was also very much like East meets West What role did your faith play in this East meets West kind of World that you were growing up in?

[00:40:36] I think it played a really big role actually Faith has always it's always been like a very prominent theme in our home So we grew up Muslim

[00:40:50] Like we all identify as Muslim but I feel like usually when I say on Muslim to people they have a very different understanding of what How that translates into my life because I don't necessarily you know like pray in that traditional kind of way or you know

[00:41:04] I'll do these very like what we know as like mainstream the same I guess, but for me it's more of like a spiritual kind of path Like SM was the tool that I had to to find that spirituality if you will We are very spiritual and

[00:41:22] Faith has always been there as like this Constant pillar of guidance Like for me, I know that personally, you know everything that's meant to happen is gonna happen

[00:41:36] And I think that really comes from my appearance and specifically my mom you know as long as I'm doing the right thing It's not like I'm hurting anyone or anything I'm just trying to be myself and so I think that gave me a lot of confidence to

[00:41:48] To do what I had to do and it feels a bit ironic that it's it's also the reason why my parents had a really hard time accepting me on the beginning because

[00:42:00] Being like queer in any way like trans or gay or any of that is really not accepted in that society And I think it's really tight to religion and so growing up my parents really were taught that this is

[00:42:13] Like a bewasting that can happen, you know like when I told them first they were they were first in denial They really didn't want to talk about it And then we started having like these

[00:42:24] Conversations of like why why did they think it's wrong and why do I think it's right and you know just like these big Those talk about debates about it And a big part of it was religion

[00:42:37] But at the same time I think at the end of the day what helped them realize that This is the path that I'm meant to take is is through that faith knowing that Whatever happens is for the best and At the end of the day

[00:42:53] They didn't want me to like you know to start home on therapy or anything but Once I started it and they saw that I was much more Confident myself and happier and you know just lighter and general

[00:43:06] I think they realized that this is this is just what had happened and yeah, and then they eventually came around I think their faith definitely helped them Presubere through that Yeah part of a part of Islam is Mactube Right which is that how would you translate that?

[00:43:27] Everything is written like faith I guess or something like that yeah everything is already calculated or written yeah Fates I think is a good I fate doesn't have quite as strong a connotation as Mactube I feel True Mactube feels so Final somehow Because Mactube also in Arabic means

[00:43:49] It has been written right So that is an important concept in Islam And I think also the concept of Islam You know like means to like surrender To something higher and so in a way they really had to do that and they had to depend on that

[00:44:10] They just surrendered to what was happening with their child something that was extremely like for into them as a concept But they just surrendered to that and you know just said that I'm a good person and obviously I wouldn't be doing this for no reason

[00:44:28] So yeah, I think it really helped them and it also helped me and it also helped that we both kind of had the same Tools for coping that I don't know made it easier somehow for them to to know that it's also difficult for me Yeah

[00:44:46] It's so interesting because I feel like in so many examples like you know we see faith can either really bring people together or really them apart and it's really nice to see The first one not the latter even over very sensitive and difficult subjects

[00:45:04] Yeah, definitely and I think maybe then also living in the US for such a long time made them more open-minded Then if they had just met in Alexandria for example, and then moved to Cairo I feel like the fact that our house was already very

[00:45:18] Cross cultural in a way helped in that sense Yeah, it's often even to not because like that was like Years before you know like even decades before But how that could really leave an impact on a person

[00:45:36] I wanted to ask you today do you consider yourself like a cross cultural kid a third-cultural kid Or do you not really think about it?

[00:45:45] I guess I do know I do give it thought because everywhere travel like I kind of have to think about like what I end in relation to where I am But at the same time I guess

[00:45:55] I would consider myself a dual national even though I technically only have one but I feel like I've definitely been very much into these two Like involved with these two countries and these two cultures And between these two languages So I think it's really

[00:46:13] Just a part of who I am, but I think also being between on that gender spectrum also made me kind of Abandoned all these labels no way Like yeah, I'm trans or I guess I would like identify as a trans man

[00:46:30] But I identify more as like a human being first and foremost And I also identify more on like with the trans part because yeah, I've seen as a man And I go through the world as a man now, but it's definitely not like

[00:46:45] Sisman you know like I've had a whole life before Where people saw me as a woman So I feel like just being in between This and also between in between like the two cultures that have been raised with Makes me kind of

[00:47:04] Not label myself so much and just Realize that it's really a A spectrum you know everything is a spectrum and I kind of fall in between a lot of different things I think that's such an interesting perspective that this experience Of going through this transition and

[00:47:25] Everything that it implies made you kind of like reject labels and be like you know what I am who I am and it doesn't matter anymore like the least different labels because they are all like facets like you

[00:47:38] Yeah, yeah, and also realizing that I'm still the same person like I'm really the exact same person That I was before my transition and after my transition Just kind of Me realize that this whole gender thing doesn't really matter you know

[00:47:58] In my in and at least my definition of myself Because I still feel like exactly the same person. I just feel more comfortable Being this type of person or like moving in this world This way Having to like consider all these different labels and identities mainly realize that

[00:48:19] It's just First of all, it's like a it's a really Complicated mix of so many different things and also that it can change over time I think one of the things that always like this came up in a Another conversation that's like you know the very first

[00:48:37] Label I guess you get in life is Your name and that's not even something you choose you know and it's something usually you carry Till the end of your life, you know and then people continue to slap on different labels like it's just

[00:48:53] It's very interesting like we were definitely like as a species. I think like just very obsessed with categorizing things and I understand obviously like it's part of human evolution like we meet it to categorize things

[00:49:06] I mean, I truly do believe we're always evolving and then like you know When and if we become parents the biggest label then becomes mother or father You know yeah Because you become this child's entire world for years

[00:49:23] Yeah, and I feel like it's just too limiting to put yourself in these boxes When you know it doesn't really mean anything, you know like yeah, it's human nature to want to like classify things and

[00:49:37] For us to want to classify each other because it's at the end of the day everyone just wants to feel like they belong Right so I think in a way it's Confiding to to feel like you

[00:49:49] Belong in some in these labels and these boxes, but I think it's also dangerous to to be too like stagnant in these boxes Do you ever feel like you felt belonging? Honestly, no, I can't say that I have thought that

[00:50:06] Which I guess would be I think that's probably my biggest struggle is to feel like I belong somewhere or like I can relate to people and a very Like deeply I guess relate to people deeply because I mean yeah, I do have like a strong support group

[00:50:22] I think like between my friends and my family and stuff But at the end of the day, I just feel so So different everybody You know whether that's being like Egyptian American or

[00:50:36] Being trans I think being trans is this is definitely harder for me to feel like I belong But I think also being Egyptian American It doesn't really help me feel like I belong in the trans community necessarily So I feel like it's it's been

[00:50:54] Kind of a struggle of like trying to balance these different identities Because I feel like I would really I could benefit from having Like more trans friends and have people that have the same experience but at the same time when I went to the US

[00:51:10] Everyone that I met there that was trans or had some kind of You know experience similar to me has a very very different background Like everyone I met was born in America and grew up there And white and had parents that accepted them right away

[00:51:27] So I feel like as much as it was nice to To see that it was just so different and I couldn't really relate to that either

[00:51:36] So it would be nice to have a place where if you're like I could fully belong in like related people on that level I wonder if one day if you meet another Egyptian American Trans Individual if you'll feel that Belonging with them. I really wonder

[00:52:00] Yeah, yeah, that would be very interesting Yeah, right Sometimes I think belonging is is Not always but sometimes I feel belonging is maybe a utopic idea that doesn't exist But again like I come at it from a lens of the majority of the people in my life and

[00:52:23] Around me are in betweenish people So I don't know You know like the idea I don't know if you've ever liked that don't thought about this but like the idea of being

[00:52:35] Monocultural and grew up raised in a city never left that city your whole family is from there extended family You know like you might be you might travel you might even be like well travel but You've never

[00:52:55] Even thought of calling somewhere else home, you know like that seems so foreign to me Yeah, speaking one language there's no confusion You know like Very homogeneous basically like that's very foreign to me

[00:53:11] And to most people that I speak to as well like it's just like what does that even mean? Does that feel like you know But I think it's nice. I mean it's I obviously don't No anyone that shares the same exact in between as me

[00:53:31] But I think the fact that most of my close friends and family and You know the people that I surround myself with are all like you said they have their own in betweenish or in between

[00:53:43] So maybe that that concept is enough to feel close to someone, you know It doesn't have to be the same exact like things but knowing that your intersections Even if it's a different intersection is really I don't know really bonds

[00:54:01] People together. I think this takes us to the untranslatable word section where I want to ask you to share a word in Arabic or in another language that doesn't translate into the English language

[00:54:18] So this is when took me a while to think about and I thought of a few actually All an Arabic that I don't know how to perfectly translate in another in English But I think the word that I'm gonna go with is passing which is a word

[00:54:36] I guess it's a word that's very common in Islam or in the Quran you see it a lot And actually I'm very familiar with this word because my mom is doing her whole

[00:54:48] PhD thesis on this topic. Oh cool. So we have a lot of conversations about it and then I thought about it today and I was like well that's a very untranslatable word

[00:54:57] Because it just has so many different meanings and I can't think of any word in English that encompasses all of the All of the connotations that this word has I think like a simple translation would be Kind of like an excellence or perfection

[00:55:19] But I think as in also means in Arabic a big part of it is Taking ones beliefs and like manifesting their beliefs and their ethics in life I didn't know that yeah, I didn't know about that either until my mom started this PhD

[00:55:39] But yeah, I think it's it's a very interesting term and I don't know how I would Translate it because it's it's all about being doing things with conviction of like Having like a sense of social responsibility or like doing things to uphold your beliefs

[00:55:55] Like going through life very intentionally I think I love that I I didn't know that the meaning I knew of the word was excellent and perfection like the the I guess the first definition you gave But I didn't know the other meanings that it has

[00:56:13] but it's a very beautiful word like a very wholesome Right, yeah, yeah, I guess if I were to explain it I would say to do like things beautifully Well, thank you for introducing me to that word because I yeah didn't didn't know the meaning of it Any touch

[00:56:38] Out of curiosity, I'm interested on like what other words do you were thinking of as well? I thought of the word music Oh Aladisaba did that was actually the first word yeah that I thought of like

[00:56:51] I always think about it. I'm like music is such a weird concept like how do we even explain that How do you explain that music? Yeah, that's tough. Right. I feel like I would say like if you say Hey, I'm a zig or something

[00:57:06] I guess you could say like she's vibes or like something is so bad The music could also mean like mood or like Adam Azeghi Yeah, I feel like it has a lot of different meanings

[00:57:21] Is it a new word is it like a word that like young people are using or that this word always exists? That's a good question. I don't know. I feel like Mazeca is definitely in like I'm a like Egyptian culture I don't know about other Arab countries

[00:57:37] I don't know that would be interesting to look up actually Yeah because when you said the word, I'm like a first of all. I haven't heard it in years Like yeah, that is really hard to translate

[00:57:48] Can you really like yeah? I just love that word for some reason like the sounds of it like the mean and the Zena it just sounds cool, you know. Yeah, also with me. It does actually yeah, and I guess I use it a lot because I feel like

[00:58:02] Hannah my sister is very mosaic. Oh, yeah It's like to explain Discard Hannah to someone that who doesn't know her. I would say she's a very mosaic kind of person So that's a wrap for today if you've enjoyed this conversation don't forget to hit subscribe to never

[00:58:23] miss an episode The in-be-twinish pod is created and hosted by Beatrice Norr The behind-the-scenes magic is things too happy that Ruby And original music is composed and produced by Malik and Mazeca I love hearing from our listeners so feel free to reach out to me anytime

[00:58:42] Join us every other Tuesday and remember the quest for belonging never ends And you are not alone keep exploring keep embracing and keep celebrating that in between their life