on Palestine pt.2 — struggle for liberation
inbetweenish • bridges across cultures
2
x
4
00:59:03
mini-series,

on Palestine pt.2 — struggle for liberation

Part 2 of the ‘on Palestine’ series:

The Palestinian struggle for liberation is portrayed widely differently depending on who you ask, but have you ever asked Palestinians how they see and understand their own struggle for liberation?

On Palestine is a three-part-series on the inbetweenish pod that focuses on the Palestinian identity, the struggle for liberation, and a way forward. Palestinians have often been misrepresented by the media, so in this mini-series you will be hearing from 3 Palestinians that come from different backgrounds:

→ Zeena, Palestinian diaspora who was raised in the Arab world
→ Faissal, Palestinian diaspora who was raised in the Western world 
→ Nour, Palestinian who was born and raised in Palestine

Discover Palestine through it’s authors, artists, and poets:


Music for the On Palestine series comes from traditional Palestinian folkloric music found in this compilation here.

—
Join us next Tuesday for Part 3 of the On Palestine series, this time we will be covering: a way forward, with vulnerability and honesty.
—
Disclaimer: The views, thoughts, and opinions expressed belong to the respective guests of the show and do not represent the views, thoughts, and opinions of the inbetweenish pod.
—
✳ Leave a Review or Rate the show on Apple or Spotify. It means a lot!

✳ Sign-up to The QUEST. Newsletter to explore the crossroads of multiple belongings.

—

Original music is composed and produced by Malik Elmessiry.
The inbetweenish pod is created and hosted by Beatriz Nour.

—

Curious to learn more about the in-betweenish?
Visit our website: www.inbetweenish.net
Behind-the-scenes is on our Instagram: @inbetweenish.pod
Have an idea? Contact Us or send an email to beatriz@inbetweenish.net

[00:00.000 --> 00:12.000] It's such a normalised experience. Everyone's grandparents were displaced and licked a bit so it wasn't even on my mind that this is an important thing that I need to ask about and know about. [00:12.000 --> 00:26.000] I have vague memories of maybe asking a bit when I was a child and maybe my mum telling me, but it wasn't something I stressed on because it happened to everyone and there's so much violence every day. You don't think your violence is special. [00:31.000 --> 00:34.000] This is a place where we talk about belonging. [00:36.000 --> 00:48.000] Welcome to The Inbetweenish. I'm Beatriz Nour, your host. Raised in three cultures, two religions and four languages. Trust me, I get the chaos. [00:49.000 --> 01:00.000] On the show, I chat with those who have lived that inbetweenish life. A foot here and a foot there. Building bridges across cultures. And of course, the age-old quest to finding home. [01:00.000 --> 01:18.000] Welcome back to part two of the OnPalestine series on the inbetweenish, where we will be covering the struggle for liberation and how it impacts the identity of our three Palestinian guests, Zina, Faisal and Nour. [01:19.000 --> 01:30.000] If you haven't heard part one of the series yet, where we cover Palestinian culture, heritage and identity, then I highly recommend that you do that as it'll make it easier to follow today's episode. [01:31.000 --> 01:34.000] Before we get into it, I want to reiterate my position. [01:35.000 --> 01:49.000] I don't think anyone, anywhere, should be killed, named, be imprisoned or taken hostage for belonging to a certain group, or holding specific beliefs, or for living on the wrong side of the border. [01:50.000 --> 02:01.000] That goes for everyone. Palestinians and Israelis, whether we're talking about Muslims, Jews or Christians, or any other religion, ethnic group or nationality. [02:02.000 --> 02:09.000] We all deserve the freedom to be and exercise our cultures and identities with dignity. [02:10.000 --> 02:20.000] Unfortunately, Palestinians have long been deprived of that right because of the Israeli occupation, and they have been fighting for liberation for decades now. [02:21.000 --> 02:23.000] Today, you'll be hearing from our same three guests. [02:24.000 --> 02:30.000] Allow me to briefly reintroduce them, and they will reveal more details about themselves throughout the episode. [02:31.000 --> 02:42.000] First up, you'll hear from Zina, who is part of the Palestinian diaspora and was born and raised in the Arab world, specifically in Jordan, where there's a large Palestinian population. [02:43.000 --> 02:56.000] Next, you'll hear from Faisal, who is also part of the Palestinian diaspora, who was raised predominantly in the West in Canada during his younger developmental years, and later on in Qatar in the Gulf region. [02:57.000 --> 03:03.000] And the last guest you'll be hearing from is Noor, who was born and raised in Palestine in the West Bank. [03:04.000 --> 03:08.000] Please note that some details have been altered for protection and privacy. [03:09.000 --> 03:17.000] In part one of the On Palestine series, we explored Palestinian culture, heritage and identity. [03:18.000 --> 03:23.000] In part two in this episode, we will be covering the Palestinian struggle for liberation. [03:24.000 --> 03:30.000] And in the last part, we're addressing a way forward with vulnerability and honesty. [03:31.000 --> 03:36.000] It's been a hard conversation given recent events, but it's an important one to have. [03:37.000 --> 03:39.000] So let's dive right into part two. [03:45.000 --> 03:51.000] There has been a long-standing history of erasure of Palestinians from their very own land. [03:52.000 --> 04:04.000] These stories are painful, but one of the things that came up very often in conversations with Zina, Faisal and Noor is that every Palestinian will have a story of displacement and ethnic cleansing. [04:05.000 --> 04:10.000] Even Palestinians who remained within Palestine and did not cross the border into neighboring countries. [04:11.000 --> 04:21.000] I think it's important to shed light on individual stories and humanize Palestinians who have long been dehumanized in Western media time and time again. [04:22.000 --> 04:30.000] So in this first question, I ask my guests to tell me about the time when their own families were forced to flee their homes in Palestine. [04:31.000 --> 04:34.000] And here Zina will share her family story. [04:36.000 --> 04:43.000] I'll start off with my mother's story. They share quite a similar story just from different parts of Palestine. [04:44.000 --> 04:57.000] So my mom's parents used to live in Yaffa, Palestinian city by the coast that was taken when Israel established the state in 48. [04:58.000 --> 05:07.000] And so that's when it was that's one of the first more the coastal areas were some of the first that got colonized and became the state of Israel. [05:08.000 --> 05:26.000] So they led from Yaffa in 48 into another town called Mzera and they left Yaffa as part of the invasion. [05:27.000 --> 05:39.000] And what was essentially the paradox of like marking the day of independence, I guess, for Israel and the creation of the state in 48. [05:39.000 --> 05:55.000] But what is actually known as the Nikba, which is the catastrophe for Palestinians, because that's when they had their land officially colonized and taken and lost forever. [05:56.000 --> 06:00.000] And they've never been and they've never been back and been allowed back into their homes. [06:01.000 --> 06:06.000] Um, little interjection here, and I'm asking you who's listening to this right now. [06:07.000 --> 06:11.000] I'm curious to know if you've heard of the term the Nakba or Nakbe. [06:12.000 --> 06:17.000] Did you know this history of the Palestinian people? Okay, so here's another question. [06:18.000 --> 06:22.000] Do you know the date of independence of the state of Israel or the year? [06:23.000 --> 06:27.000] Isn't it odd how two events can be described so very differently? [06:28.000 --> 06:37.000] This is one of the most relevant examples of the 20th century that I can think of that encompasses the very famous quote, history is written by the victors. [06:38.000 --> 06:45.000] This is why it's so important to question what we've been taught and why we've been taught things from a particular perspective. [06:46.000 --> 06:48.000] Okay, back to Zina's story. [06:49.000 --> 07:01.000] So they ran away under a brutal situation where 750,000 people were displaced, 15,000 like villages were destroyed. [07:02.000 --> 07:14.000] And so they left with under these sort of circumstances because it was just, yeah, like hell on earth. [07:14.000 --> 07:22.000] There's massacres, rapes, there's babies taken out of mothers' wombs, there was kidnaps, all sorts of things. [07:23.000 --> 07:31.000] And the painful part is that it's quite eeringly similar to what we're witnessing right now. [07:32.000 --> 07:38.000] They moved with perhaps perception and belief that they will be back. [07:39.000 --> 07:51.000] So they went from Yaffa, went to Mzerah, and Mzerah was also under brutal attack with the same sort of like bombs in the streets and massacres and all of that. [07:52.000 --> 08:01.000] And so, and with nobody to defend, so it was another village that fell. And so then they moved to Ramallah, Ramallah, which is now part of the West Bank. [08:02.000 --> 08:12.000] So they moved to Ramallah, and that's where my mom was born and lived there up until 67. [08:13.000 --> 08:26.000] And so 67 was the sixth day Israeli-Arab war. And again, same brutal dynamics were taking place. [08:27.000 --> 08:42.000] My mom speaks so vividly about these specific bombs that were being dropped on them called napalm bombs, which were bombs that were used in Vietnam, in Japan, that burned through your skin. [08:43.000 --> 08:48.000] This is just very vivid memories of people being burned. [08:49.000 --> 08:56.000] And so my grandma was insisting that they moved to Jordan for safety. [08:57.000 --> 09:06.000] She had lost one of her sons like a few years back in a car accident, and then her other son joined the war. [09:07.000 --> 09:13.000] And so she got word that they were moving, they captured a lot of them, but they're actually moving to Jordan. [09:14.000 --> 09:19.000] And so she was like, we're going to go. I can't afford to lose another son. I want to be with my other son. [09:20.000 --> 09:26.000] And so she got everybody to move to Amman in Jordan, and in the hopes that they will also be back. [09:27.000 --> 09:34.000] And so they fled to Amman on foot, and there's really jets and warplanes and bombs and all of that. [09:35.000 --> 09:41.000] And they made it to Amman and lived the entire family in a house with one room and a kitchen. [09:42.000 --> 09:49.000] And there was a good 10 of them. And for six months, they've never heard of my mom's brother. [09:50.000 --> 09:58.000] They assumed he was dead. And basically, six months later, he appeared. [09:59.000 --> 10:08.000] He was hiding in mountains because Israel was trying to take a lot of these men in the war. [10:09.000 --> 10:15.000] So they're not proof of what actually happened, and then eyewitnesses of the massacres that were committed. [10:16.000 --> 10:20.000] And so they started to smuggle them into different areas in the mountains for safety. [10:21.000 --> 10:24.000] And so he hid there and eventually made it out, smuggled into Amman. [10:25.000 --> 10:29.000] At that time, they're still like the borders were a little bit more fluid. [10:30.000 --> 10:36.000] And so some people were applying to come back. Some people were able to go back. [10:37.000 --> 10:45.000] My parents, my mom, sorry, and her family couldn't. And that was that. [10:46.000 --> 10:55.000] And they stayed in Jordan. And mind you, Ramallah is part of the West Bank, which is technically under the Palestinian Authority jurisdiction. [10:56.000 --> 11:05.000] And so technically, well, the PLO is a story for another time and how they're kind of a subcontractor for the occupation anyway. [11:06.000 --> 11:14.000] They wouldn't let anybody come back. But really, the borders and that control of return is very much in the hands of Israel. [11:15.000 --> 11:26.000] Because while there's the West Bank and there's the Palestinian Authority, effectively, all of it is occupied and controlled by Israel, by land, air and sea. [11:27.000 --> 11:35.000] So, yeah, and they never really went back, despite Ramallah being technically a Palestinian territory right now. [11:36.000 --> 11:44.000] My dad had a very similar story. He was just in a different area called Arrabe, which is just outside of Jenin and also fled on foot. [11:45.000 --> 11:57.000] It's about like 115 kilometers. But there was almost like a jolt in his memory where it was like he remembers leaving the house, he remembers walking. [11:58.000 --> 12:06.000] And then the next thing he remembers is that he was in Jordan, in it a bit. And the school semester was about to start. [12:07.000 --> 12:13.000] And so they went into school and that was that. And then they never were allowed back. [12:14.000 --> 12:23.000] I asked Sina to clarify something here. If both of her grandparents left with the understanding that they would eventually be able to come back to their homes. [12:24.000 --> 12:34.000] Yeah, everybody did. It was more of like a spur of the moment. There's a war, there's bombs, there's massacres. [12:35.000 --> 12:41.000] We see and hear of all these killings and all of that. So let's flee to somewhere safe temporarily. [12:42.000 --> 12:48.000] And so they took a few things and fled. But there wasn't that understanding that they won't be back. [12:49.000 --> 12:57.000] Now, over time, that became, you know, it's a boy that cried wolf, right? So they fled in 48 and then never got to go back. [12:58.000 --> 13:08.000] And so that's why you see today in the deep rooting that people have to their land and the refusal to leave. [13:09.000 --> 13:12.000] And you know, you hear this narrative of why don't Arab countries just take them in? [13:13.000 --> 13:22.000] Because taking them in means effectively, ethically cleansing even more of Palestine and they will never return back. [13:23.000 --> 13:31.000] And the people in Raze are actually refugees from areas in 48 and 67. They weren't there before. [13:32.000 --> 13:37.000] They were people that were made refuge and fled to Raze and decided to stay there. [13:37.000 --> 13:43.000] And so it's this sense that you do it once, you do it twice, you do it thrice. [13:44.000 --> 14:02.000] And so we know what this whole thing is about. And so this whole temporary relocation is a farce because history speaks to the ongoing project of really taking over all of Palestine. [14:03.000 --> 14:09.000] I mean, it's in their doctrine, right? A people without a land for a land without a people, right? [14:10.000 --> 14:30.000] That's the premise that it was a land without a people. But those people that live there exist and they're my grandparents and parents and a million others, six million others in the diaspora that are living, breathing examples of that it was a land with people with livelihoods for centuries. [14:31.000 --> 14:44.000] I think it's so easy to put up a mental and emotional barrier to stories of suffering and statistics of displacement because on some level it's distant. It's not people we know and it feels almost unreal. [14:45.000 --> 14:56.000] But Zina is a personal friend and this isn't a distant family history for her. This is the story of her grandparents on both sides and her parents, aunts and uncles. [14:57.000 --> 15:01.000] Their lived experience when they were just children and teenagers. [15:02.000 --> 15:14.000] I tend to believe that in everyone's family history, if you go back far enough, you will definitely encounter a story of displacement and of people made refugees seeking shelter and protection. [15:15.000 --> 15:23.000] I also believe we shouldn't only empathize with people we know or necessarily agree with. That's not what humanity stands for. [15:23.000 --> 15:26.000] Humanity in my eyes should not discriminate. [15:27.000 --> 15:32.000] And now let's hear what Faisal had to say about his own family history. [15:34.000 --> 15:43.000] I can't give you a full anecdote from start to finish of they left and then they ended up here and then they rented this house and then they had that. I don't know all of that. [15:44.000 --> 15:48.000] I don't know all of that because I haven't been told all of that. So. [15:49.000 --> 16:05.000] Like I can tell you I can tell you what I know, which is which is my mother's my mother's parents were both. I mean, we're in Haifa at that point. My mother wasn't born yet. [16:06.000 --> 16:22.000] And in 1948 they fled to they took a few things from their house and they fled thinking that they would leave for a couple of weeks, but they fled to. [16:25.000 --> 16:30.000] I mean, my mother's story is is also the story of Palestinian diaspora. [16:30.000 --> 16:51.000] It's it is. But it is. It is a story of loss. Again, you know, it's it's not only the loss is not limited to to to leaving Palestine in 1948. The loss is all of the rebuilding. [16:52.000 --> 17:00.000] First of all, all of the result of trauma, which is, for example, my grandfather dying to two years later in his early thirties. [17:03.000 --> 17:04.000] There's this word. [17:06.000 --> 17:16.000] Which I guess translates to like extreme frustration, but it's almost this embodied frustration where my mother has always said that my grandfather died of. [17:17.000 --> 17:23.000] Which is this like he died of frustration, he died of this embodied immense. [17:25.000 --> 17:42.000] Sadness and frustration and anger. It's it's not anger. It's frustration and and and loss and and and then all the consequences of him passing away of my you know my grandmother suddenly being a single mother of four. [17:43.000 --> 18:00.000] And having them to kind of live with a cousin and then and then obviously, you know, it's it's complicated because these are like additional additional five people and no one, you know, had enough had enough money to go around. [18:01.000 --> 18:16.000] And, you know, it's not limited to to our departure. It's all of the loss of suffering and rebuilding that my family and all the families have to do after 1948. [18:17.000 --> 18:25.000] Faisal makes a very important point here that often gets forgotten or left out of the equation that we don't necessarily understand. [18:26.000 --> 18:41.000] It's not just the moment of impact. In this case, the Nakba, but it's everything that comes after the difficulty doesn't stop at the displacement and forced expulsion, but it's all the rebuilding of life that comes after that. [18:42.000 --> 19:00.000] Yes, rebuilding was was tough, you know, rebuilding your life through being a widow, through being an orphan, through being and this is I'm talking about my family, you know, through through being a widow, through losing your father, through losing. [19:01.000 --> 19:23.000] Also, your financial security, losing your your your work, using your property, losing your house, losing your furniture and you really have to start over and people left and the common thing for everyone that left is that no one left with the knowledge that they would never come back. [19:24.000 --> 19:37.000] And that's a big thing as well that people don't realize, like people, people like you when you talk about the Palestinian diaspora experience, maybe you'll tell someone, but they don't realize that people left thinking that they're going for two weeks for a month. [19:38.000 --> 19:49.000] And that they took things with them. They took little things here and there, but they didn't move their house, you know, they didn't like move their furniture and move all of this stuff. [19:50.000 --> 20:02.000] So you you left with enough things that would that would that would sustain you for for a few weeks, but not you didn't leave you didn't move. [20:03.000 --> 20:05.000] It wasn't a move. It was it was escape. [20:06.000 --> 20:17.000] So you so all families, including both side of my families and everyone, had to rebuild from scratch. And this is this is a big this is a big part of our identity. [20:17.000 --> 20:37.000] And this is a big part of the diaspora Palestinian identity is this feeling of feeling unsettled is never feeling at home is is the the inheriting that loss and that feeling of of not being at home. [20:38.000 --> 20:39.000] It's really ingrained in us. [20:40.000 --> 20:51.000] So now we heard from Zina and Faisal, whose grandparents and parents on both sides fled and crossed the border into other countries, making the part of the Palestinian diaspora. [20:52.000 --> 21:00.000] Now let's listen to Nour, who grew up in Palestine, where her family never crossed the border during the Nakba. They stayed within Palestine. [21:01.000 --> 21:15.000] Yeah, so, I mean, I've been realizing recently that I regret not asking my grandmother more about her experiences at a neck there when she was still alive because she passed when I was 14. [21:16.000 --> 21:23.000] I guess I didn't have that consciousness or knowledge of the importance of documenting and archiving our elders and whatnot. [21:24.000 --> 21:36.000] So I don't have the most details, but my family were originally from a village called the Ramleh, which is now within like 1948 Israeli territory. [21:37.000 --> 21:40.000] And during the Nakba, they were forced to flee. [21:42.000 --> 21:54.000] And it was a, you know, mix of forced expulsion and displacement and murder and, you know, threats to life and rape of women and all of that. [21:55.000 --> 22:04.000] Again, I don't really know the details of my of my family's experience, and I've been meaning to ask my dad about it when I see him. [22:05.000 --> 22:14.000] But yes, they fled the Ramleh to El Bireh, which is like next to Ramallah, part of Ramallah in 1948. [22:15.000 --> 22:18.000] And yeah, have been there ever since. [22:19.000 --> 22:23.000] I will also say, like, obviously, as people grow older, they're more conscious. [22:24.000 --> 22:28.000] But me, like I said, my grandmother passed at 14, my grandfather before I was born. [22:29.000 --> 22:32.000] So I would have only had first 14 years of my life to ask my grandmother. [22:33.000 --> 22:34.000] But it's such a normalized experience. [22:35.000 --> 22:36.000] Everyone's grandparents were displaced in Nakba. [22:37.000 --> 22:41.000] So it wasn't even on my mind that this is an important thing that I need to ask about and know about. [22:42.000 --> 22:43.000] You know what I mean? [22:44.000 --> 22:52.000] I have vague memories of maybe asking a bit when I was a child and maybe my mom telling me, but it wasn't something I stressed on because it happened to everyone. [22:53.000 --> 22:54.000] And there's so much violence every day. [22:55.000 --> 22:56.000] You don't think your violence is special. [22:57.000 --> 23:01.000] And I've never been to the village that my grandparents are originally from. [23:02.000 --> 23:03.000] I've never seen it. [23:04.000 --> 23:06.000] My cousin and my uncle went recently. [23:07.000 --> 23:08.000] So parts of it that is fully empty. [23:09.000 --> 23:10.000] It's just like green now. [23:12.000 --> 23:15.000] And I've been wanting to go with me and my dad. [23:16.000 --> 23:17.000] So I'll hopefully do that one day. [23:18.000 --> 23:20.000] I have to get a permit because I have a West Bank ID. [23:21.000 --> 23:23.000] So yeah, one day, inshaAllah. [23:24.000 --> 23:34.000] At this point, I asked Noor to explain to me in detail the differences and implications around different IDs for Palestinians living in Palestine. [23:35.000 --> 23:36.000] The ID? [23:37.000 --> 23:40.000] Yeah, so I'm born and raised in the West Bank, so I have a West Bank ID. [23:41.000 --> 23:43.000] There's a few forms of IDs you can have. [23:44.000 --> 23:46.000] The West Bank ID is called the green ID. [23:47.000 --> 23:51.000] So that only allows you to move freely within the West Bank itself. [23:52.000 --> 23:59.000] Even within the West Bank itself, you're still facing checkpoints, even between two cities that are technically both administered by the Palestine Authority. [24:01.000 --> 24:03.000] But Israel controls everything in reality. [24:05.000 --> 24:17.000] If I want to go to Jerusalem or at Haifa or at Yefa or to Jomle, anywhere that's considered Israeli territory, I would need to apply for a permit, which ranges in the difficulty to get it. [24:17.000 --> 24:21.000] I have friends that applied for medical permits that have been rejected. [24:22.000 --> 24:29.000] Or you can get a permit for like only 24 hours or like specific number of hours, and you can only go through a certain checkpoint. [24:32.000 --> 24:41.000] So if you're from 48, you have an Israeli passport, you're an Israeli citizen, even if you get treated like a second-class one in reality, but on paper, you technically have the same rights. [24:42.000 --> 24:52.000] 48 is the land that was taken by Israel in 1948, so that comprises what territory Israel views as Israeli. [24:53.000 --> 25:00.000] So I do want to explain the Jerusalem ID thing, because I think it's pretty important. [25:01.000 --> 25:03.000] It's just like really messed up what kind of thing it is. [25:03.000 --> 25:15.000] But if you're a Palestinian from Jerusalem, you don't have an Israeli passport, and you don't have permanent residency in Jerusalem, you have temporary residency. [25:16.000 --> 25:23.000] And that temporary residency is contingent on Jerusalem being your center of life. That's how it's quoted. [25:24.000 --> 25:37.000] So if I'm from Jerusalem, and I go live in Ramallah or Nablus for two or three years, and Israelis find out they have grounds to remove my Jerusalem residency, and then I am essentially stateless. [25:38.000 --> 25:47.000] So people from Jerusalem have a temporary Jerusalem ID, and they have something called laissez-passé, as in the French, laissez-passé, you know, that's just how Arabs pronounce it. [25:48.000 --> 25:53.000] But it's like a document, like a travel document, and they have a temporary Jordanian passport. [25:54.000 --> 26:00.000] So that is their passport, but it's quote-unquote temporary. Palestinians from the West Bank have it too. [26:01.000 --> 26:05.000] And their ID is a blue ID, mine's a green ID. [26:06.000 --> 26:19.000] And the Israelis will go check the trash cans of Palestinian homes in Jerusalem if they suspect that they're living elsewhere to see if people are living there, and check their water bills and electricity bills and stuff like that. [26:20.000 --> 26:34.000] And then if you're from Gaza, you have a Gaza ID, which means you can't go anywhere, you can't do anything, and it's, you know, the most limited out of all the potential IDs you can have. [26:35.000 --> 26:50.000] So with all this discussion around IDs, limitations on movement and freedom, I asked Nood when she became conscious that the Palestinian experience is not exactly normal compared to what happens in other countries around the world. [26:51.000 --> 27:05.000] I mean, when I first moved to, when I moved to the UK a few years ago, and I, like, discovered the concept of inter-ailing of how European teens are travelling across Europe on trains, [27:06.000 --> 27:11.000] and just that freedom of movement and lack of visa and public transport infrastructure blew my mind. [27:12.000 --> 27:19.000] Obviously, I knew it existed, like, but to hear about the specific thing, and it made me feel really, really, really resentful. [27:20.000 --> 27:28.000] That was one of the main things I clocked when I went abroad, is the freedom of movement thing and how limiting it is. [27:29.000 --> 27:40.000] And yeah, I think those were some of my main realizations. Again, I always knew it wasn't normal, whatever, but that was when I, the differences were highlighted to me. [27:41.000 --> 27:49.000] Even when I took the Eurostar for the first time this year, and to me going from one country to another on a train was, like, insane to me. [27:51.000 --> 28:03.000] You know, and being underwater and all that, but I was a bit shocked at what I was doing, and I felt very, like, village girl exposed to the city, you know what I mean? [28:11.000 --> 28:20.000] So now, let's get into the second question I asked, which was, how does the struggle for liberation play into your Palestinian identity? [28:21.000 --> 28:23.000] First up, we have Zino. [28:24.000 --> 28:38.000] For me, to be Palestinian is to fight for liberation, regardless of who's that for. Really, it's liberation and justice and equality as a principle. [28:39.000 --> 28:48.000] I think it's so, like, it's so interwoven with being Palestinian simply because that's all we've ever known, and it's still ongoing. [28:49.000 --> 28:53.000] And so, I think you can't be apolitical when you are Palestinian. [28:54.000 --> 29:13.000] That aspect of you is very present. You're still in that cycle of erasure. You're still in that reality of your identity being buried and stripped away and maimed and so on. [29:14.000 --> 29:22.000] And so there's, you know, there's a phrase that's always been said is that existence is resistance. [29:23.000 --> 29:42.000] The reason for that is kind of what I spoke to a little bit before, is this, in being Palestinian, in my parents and grandparents, my grandparents having Palestinian passports that dates prior to even the establishment of the state of Israel, [29:43.000 --> 29:52.000] such as the state of Palestine, and saying that you're Palestinian is just an affirmation that these people exist, whether they're recognized or not. [29:53.000 --> 30:00.000] It exists. They exist. We exist. The country and the culture and the memories and the history is there. [30:00.000 --> 30:19.000] And so I think it's the driving force, the fuel to that identity, and then it manifests in different ways, whether it's in food and keeping that alive and protecting it from erasure or from appropriation, [30:20.000 --> 30:46.000] whether it's the books and the authors and the poets and the music that have been systematically throughout history been targeted as a way to also erase the culture, whether that's through our folklore and heritage of the trees and the traditional robes and all of these different things. [30:46.000 --> 30:58.000] And so you're constantly asserting in some ways, in different ways, your right to be who you claim to be. [30:58.000 --> 31:14.000] And I think there's something that plays out as well. There's, in the moments and interactions that I've had with Israelis in my travels, [31:15.000 --> 31:27.000] and introducing myself as a Palestinian comes with a lot of puzzled looks of, what do you mean? But you were born in Jordan and you live in Jordan. [31:28.000 --> 31:40.000] And there's a little bit of that imposter that comes through, that's like, oh, can I really fully claim that? And that's part of the tactic. [31:40.000 --> 31:57.000] And so I felt this belittling of, how can you even claim that? Because you've never lived there. And then it's that burden of educating, of explaining why I don't live there, and if that was a choice, I would live there. [31:57.000 --> 32:12.000] But just because it was taken away, just because I don't have the choice to live there, doesn't make me any less a Palestinian, simply a Palestinian that has been displaced generations on. [32:12.000 --> 32:31.000] And I've had brief conversations since the attacks on Gaza and the bombardment and all of that started. I was met with a lot of, oh, you've never lived there, so you don't know. [32:31.000 --> 32:44.000] And it just speaks to the lack of awareness and understanding of why that's the case. So yeah, you're always in that kind of position. [32:45.000 --> 32:52.000] It's so interesting that people can have this perspective of, well, you've never lived there, so how can you claim it? [32:52.000 --> 33:06.000] I'll go off on a bit of a tangent here, but on the in-between-ish, we talk about being multicultural. And a lot of times, people are a part of country, but they've never lived there for a number of different reasons. [33:07.000 --> 33:23.000] For example, I'm Brazilian-Egyptian, and I've never lived in Brazil, but that doesn't make me any less Brazilian. But I think the difference with Palestinians is there's no threat to my Brazilian identity known as trying to erase it. [33:24.000 --> 33:31.000] However, there is a threat to the Palestinian identity. Historically, different countries have tried to erase it. [33:32.000 --> 33:46.000] To me, it's mind-boggling that this country that once existed fully on maps, had a passport, cities spread out. At some point in time, it became almost taboo to even say Palestine. [33:47.000 --> 33:56.000] And today, it's no longer recognized as a country by every country in the world. How did we get to this point? [33:57.000 --> 34:02.000] Like, if this isn't erasure, I don't know what is. [34:03.000 --> 34:20.000] Frankly, I mean, frankly speaking, the fight for liberation, for me, was a very distant fantasy that I didn't... [34:21.000 --> 34:41.000] I, of course, we all hope, and we all have the dream of returning to Palestine, or even, not even, I mean, forget me, but at least for Palestinians and Palestine to live a normal life, and ideally for us to be able to return. [34:42.000 --> 34:56.000] We are still connected to this place. They thought that maybe two generations later, we'd just melt, blend into wherever we were. But no, no one blended in. No one blended in. [34:57.000 --> 35:23.000] But it is a fantasy, because we have grown up from disappointment to disappointment, and being completely disillusioned with us being entirely abandoned by the international community and by the world, and our suffering somehow being justified. [35:23.000 --> 35:52.000] That, for me, this fight for liberation was not something that I imagined would be ever possible, until maybe recently now, with what's happening now in Gaza, and people finally, you know, the world becoming conscious of what's going on and what has been going on for such a long time. [35:53.000 --> 36:08.000] But that they are starting to speak, and so that is very hopeful. And I feel that most Palestinians that I talk to in the diaspora were almost afraid of that idea. [36:08.000 --> 36:18.000] You know, we're so afraid of being disappointed, or at least I speak for myself. I'm so afraid of being disappointed, and it's something that I see through conversations in my other Palestinian fans. [36:18.000 --> 36:26.000] We're so afraid of being disappointed, because we have been disappointed again and again and again and again and again and again, and we have been abandoned. [36:26.000 --> 36:40.000] By design, we were abandoned. By the foundation of it, we have been abandoned. Because if we were not abandoned, then it would meet something completely different. [36:41.000 --> 36:52.000] But we have been abandoned. We have been forgotten. The violence against us has been justified for so long that it's really difficult. [36:52.000 --> 37:02.000] And now there is a bit of hope, even though what's happening is absolutely horrifying, and it brings up all of the trauma I feel like I'm also a healer. [37:02.000 --> 37:21.000] So I feel all the trauma of my ancestors with me in what's happening, and really seeing those images and hearing the comments of Western leaders and Israeli officials on how they want to eradicate us. [37:22.000 --> 37:31.000] And this is what it's about. This is the fight for liberation. It doesn't go to a fight for liberation at this point. [37:31.000 --> 37:48.000] It's like a fight for us to be acknowledged as human beings, for us to be acknowledged as just on a very basic level as a human, as someone who deserves to live, as someone who deserves empathy. [37:48.000 --> 38:05.000] And this is insane. It's insane that I have to, me and my friends and my Palestinian friends and my Arab friends, have to sit there and try to explain to people that, hey, you know what? [38:05.000 --> 38:14.000] We're also human. We're like you. We don't deserve to die. Like, this is where we are. This is the fight for liberation. [38:14.000 --> 38:21.000] Because this is the basis of it. The basis is that there is someone who doesn't believe that you deserve the same thing as them. [38:21.000 --> 38:31.000] So the fight for liberation is for you. It's not even for you. Like, why should it be my role to explain to someone that I'm not an animal? You know what I mean? [38:31.000 --> 38:47.000] Like, why is it me as someone who is oppressed, not to me now, but like the principle of my identity and of my family's suffering, is this oppression, is this displacement, is this violence? [38:47.000 --> 38:57.000] And this is me as a victim having to go and be like, hey, listen, guys, I'm sorry. I'm a victim. Can we acknowledge that or not? No, we can't acknowledge that. [38:57.000 --> 39:02.000] Okay, then what do I do? Where do I go? [39:02.000 --> 39:09.000] So now on to Noor. Let's listen to how the struggle for liberation played into her Palestinian identity. [39:09.000 --> 39:26.000] And in this section, she will tell us about Al-Qadayy al-Felistanayyya or Al-Adiyya in my Egyptian accent, which translates into the Palestinian cause, the struggle for liberation and how it's referred to in Arabic. [39:27.000 --> 39:34.000] I think it's an inextricable part of my identity and the identity of every Palestinian. [39:34.000 --> 39:41.000] Various members of my family have been involved in different activism and things, so it was really built into me. [39:41.000 --> 39:46.000] And I think it is the same for most Palestinians. [39:46.000 --> 39:56.000] I don't really have much more to say than that, other than that it is the identity like being Palestinian is synonymous with the fight for liberation, like they're inextricable. [39:56.000 --> 40:08.000] I think it's part of the Arab identity. I mean, despite the normalization and despite there are actually, you know, maybe big parts of Arab society that maybe don't care about Palestine. [40:08.000 --> 40:21.000] But I've heard of so many Arab non-Palestinian friends of mine tell me about growing up like with philosophy and, you know, and I had a friend of mine tell me that this was the first Qadiyya I was ever exposed to, the first cause I was exposed to. [40:21.000 --> 40:28.000] And her dad had it on TV all the time. And I told her, and she's a bit older than me, so I told her she's the like Mohammed Dura generation. [40:28.000 --> 40:35.000] Like, I didn't see that on TV. Like, I don't have memories of seeing that on TV because I was too young. [40:35.000 --> 40:38.000] I know that shaped a lot of people and a lot of Arabs. [40:38.000 --> 40:46.000] My friend who's had a key like remember is going to protest for Palestine in the UK, like when she was four years old. [40:46.000 --> 41:00.000] So I do think it's also a big part of Arab identity, because again, like I said before, this is a fight against Western imperialism and colonization over our lands and it has divided all Arabs and it's taken land of other Arab countries. [41:01.000 --> 41:06.000] So I think it's an extricable, it should be an extricable part of all of our identities. [41:09.000 --> 41:18.000] I want to take a moment here to explain what Nour briefly mentioned about the Mohammed Dura generation as it's an important piece of history. [41:19.000 --> 41:28.000] So the state's back to September of the year 2000 when the Second Intifada or uprising of Palestinians against the state of Israel took place. [41:29.000 --> 41:47.000] This boy, Mohammed, who was 12 years old, was with his father, Jamel al-Dura, and they were walking back home when they got caught in crossfires and the father tried to protect his son behind him crouched down next to a short concrete wall. [41:48.000 --> 42:01.000] And Mohammed was killed by the Israeli Defense Forces, and Jamel, his father, was shot at several times and ended up with nine bullets in his body, yet survived. [42:02.000 --> 42:16.000] This was caught on camera and broadcast throughout the Arab world and France, I should mention, and this really came to shape the Palestinian cause for a lot of young Arab millennials who were children or teenagers at the time. [42:17.000 --> 42:40.000] I myself was eight years old when I first saw this, and I still remember in vivid details the images and discussions that followed with my father afterwards to try and understand why children were being killed and parents couldn't protect them, which is, you know, what you expect as a child to be protected from harm. [42:41.000 --> 42:49.000] And like me, there are thousands if not millions of Arabs who were first exposed to the Palestinian cause with these same images. [42:51.000 --> 43:09.000] Jamel al-Dura, the father, survived, as I mentioned earlier, and two more of his sons were killed by the IDF, the Israeli Defense Forces, in October of 2023 during the ongoing genocide in Gaza, or in Gaza, as we say in Arabic. [43:11.000 --> 43:18.000] For Palestinians and for many Arabs, Palestine is an ongoing existential question that dates back decades. [43:18.000 --> 43:30.000] This is why, if you're just tuning into the Palestinian cause, you may not fully understand the outrage, the grief, the lack of trust in any of the excuses or proofs provided by Israel and the IDF. [43:31.000 --> 43:44.000] But for people who have been following this for a while, none of this is new. We've seen it all before. The same excuses and getting away with it on an international level. And it really begs the question, when will it be enough? [43:45.000 --> 44:00.000] And now, on to the last question I asked my guests. Can you explain the threat you feel to your Palestinian identity? First, we'll hear from Zina. [44:01.000 --> 44:22.000] I think the erasure of Palestinian identity and with it, every Palestinian that subscribes to it, and so it becomes a very personal attack, is how systematic and deeply ingrained that process of erasure is. [44:23.000 --> 44:42.000] And there's so many layers to it, on all fronts. I spoke a little bit about the culture and the cultural appropriation of the heritage and culture and food and Palestinian identity and claim it as their own. [44:43.000 --> 44:47.000] Namely, your hummus and falafel, to start with. [44:47.000 --> 45:16.000] And then goes to everything. There's, in the past 75 years, a very systematic attack at anybody that carries any thread of culture, Palestinian culture, whether that's assassinations of famous caricature artists, poets, authors, that naturally their art, [45:17.000 --> 45:35.000] weaves in the Palestinian struggle for liberation, because that's a fact of life and it's been what shapes so much of Palestinian identity, but also just, as in when they get popular, they are assassinated. [45:36.000 --> 45:57.000] And so Najee Lally is a very famous example of that, a son, Kinefani, and so many. And you also see it in raids of cultural centers in Jerusalem, you know, whether they're in music, like Ben-At-ul-Oz, it's just very systematic, right? [45:57.000 --> 46:22.000] Because so long as the Palestinian identity exists and those people speak of stories and their generations and their parents and all of that, it's such a threat to the very fabric of Zionism and the colonial project, because it's built on what I mentioned earlier, that it's a land without a people, for a people without a land. [46:22.000 --> 46:49.000] And so any safekeeping of culture and everything that that entails is a threat to that. But then obviously on a more real and gruesome level is the actual taking up and colonization of lands and the expansion of settlements and the changing of street names and the changing of names of the cities. [46:49.000 --> 47:13.000] The continuously to varying degrees and varying like speed ethnically cleansing Palestinians, whether in big amounts like in 48 and 67 or in slow and steady ways since then up until now to now displacing 1.4 million residents. [47:13.000 --> 47:39.000] And all of that is a threat to the identity because what you're effectively doing is eating up all of Palestinian land and culture and all of that and reducing it to mere folklore that will be something that is insignificant and perhaps paid tribute to what is no longer a threat to the colonizing state, [47:39.000 --> 47:51.000] as is the case in places like Australia and, you know, the Native Americans in the States, you know, they'll speak of like, oh, this is seated land and this is where we get our water from and whatever. [47:51.000 --> 48:01.000] And they'll acknowledge these things, but it's no longer a threat that the indigenous people will have any powers to reclaim any of that. [48:01.000 --> 48:06.000] And so this is kind of the stage of the last stage of colonization. [48:06.000 --> 48:13.000] I would say that Israel and Palestine are in right now. [48:13.000 --> 48:15.000] It's all by design, right? [48:15.000 --> 48:29.000] There's so much of the laws that make this possible, whether it's laws like the absentee law that were that was created where people that have fled temporarily. [48:29.000 --> 48:34.000] So my parents and grandparents in 48 and 67. [48:34.000 --> 48:37.000] And they claim the house is, you know, under the absentee law. [48:37.000 --> 48:46.000] And so they're able to take it under the state and under the Jewish National Fund and so and then turn it into their parks and their settlements and all of these things. [48:46.000 --> 49:02.000] And the why the right of return is such a big contention because it would change the demographic equation and and it would no longer just be, again, in their doctrine at State for the Jews only. [49:02.000 --> 49:08.000] So you don't need to go far to understand. [49:08.000 --> 49:14.000] And it's not very complicated to understand what is that ultimate goal. [49:14.000 --> 49:27.000] And it's been taking place for 75 years and it's in their very fabric of Zionism, of this is a Jewish only state. [49:27.000 --> 49:36.000] And what that means when you actually have that many Palestinians, it means that we need to get rid of them. [49:36.000 --> 49:39.000] And now we'll hear from Faisal. [49:40.000 --> 50:06.000] The threat now is is is the threat of people who maybe were more ashamed or more subtle about their racism for them to feel fully supported in their racist ideology at the moment. [50:06.000 --> 50:08.000] And this is the threat. [50:08.000 --> 50:23.000] The threat is there being no safety and no boundaries in what we accept of human interactions with each other. [50:23.000 --> 50:44.000] For there to be no no right or wrong anymore for for right or wrong to have been hijacked and manipulated in order to fit a global racist colonial agenda. [50:44.000 --> 50:50.000] And for people to see that and not acknowledge that and not understand that it scares me. [50:50.000 --> 50:55.000] It scares me that people are are not aware of that. [50:55.000 --> 51:09.000] It scares me that people are so self-centered and so disconnected from human suffering and the human experience on a global level that they are unable to empathize. [51:09.000 --> 51:17.000] And that's scary. It's scary that this is the world that we live in, that we live in the world in a world where people are unable to empathize. [51:17.000 --> 51:21.000] That is extremely scary. [51:21.000 --> 51:26.000] And it's not only a threat to Palestinians. This is a threat to all humans. [51:26.000 --> 51:40.000] This is a threat to every single human being in the world where it is true that if you let this slide, then you are accepting this world for yourself. [51:40.000 --> 51:45.000] You are accepting that this is the new norm. You are OK with what is happening. [51:45.000 --> 51:56.000] And and then this might happen to you, whoever you are, because now, OK, the West is the ruling, the ruling power of the world. [51:56.000 --> 52:01.000] Fine. Who tells you that this is nothing lasts forever? [52:01.000 --> 52:09.000] I don't know when the tides will change, but this is what we're talking about. It's dangerous to think that way. [52:09.000 --> 52:15.000] It's a true danger for everyone and people who think that they're they're safe. [52:15.000 --> 52:28.000] Yeah, let me make something clear. This is not a threat. This is just reality is that throughout history, you see, you know, places be in power and then become less powerful. [52:29.000 --> 52:36.000] This is just the reality of things that that also, you know, we have to accept that we're all one. [52:36.000 --> 52:50.000] And our human experience is is the same. And especially in this globalized world, our human experience is even more linked and even more the same as it has ever been. [52:51.000 --> 53:00.000] We have to understand our liberation as not it's not it's not only the liberation of Palestine, it's a liberation of all oppressed people by power. [53:00.000 --> 53:11.000] And this is what this is what we need to to also be focusing on is this is liberation for all humans. [53:11.000 --> 53:18.000] I very much agree with Faisal's point here. I think there is a serious threat to our common human rights. [53:18.000 --> 53:27.000] When we allow atrocities to happen to a certain group of people, we are on some level setting a standard of the treatment being normal for anyone else. [53:27.000 --> 53:40.000] So whatever we accept onto a vulnerable group of people, we are accepting onto all of us later down the line if we don't stop it and change our laws to actively protect all human beings. [53:40.000 --> 53:51.000] Let's hear what Noor had to say about the threat she feels to her Palestinian identity as a Palestinian who grew up and still has a home in Palestine today. [53:53.000 --> 53:59.000] I mean, there's there's lots of threats. It just depends which one I'm choosing to focus on. [53:59.000 --> 54:06.000] There is the eminent land threat. There's obviously lots of places in the West Bank are being displaced right now. [54:06.000 --> 54:14.000] But there are some pockets that exist in a more chill space in terms of day to day land theft and stuff. [54:14.000 --> 54:21.000] And I think with everything happening as recently, it's made people feel like, oh, shit, it's going to be our turn next. [54:21.000 --> 54:28.000] You know, we have all been displaced. Like even me, I grew up in West Bank, but my family was initially displaced. [54:28.000 --> 54:35.000] Like most people have been displaced. These are like, you know, the basic things that that bind us together. [54:36.000 --> 54:40.000] A Palestinian friend of mine shared something recently. [54:41.000 --> 54:47.000] She said the only difference between me and someone in Gaza is the direction my grandparents ran in in the makaba. [54:48.000 --> 54:51.000] And I think that's something everyone feels. I mean, I don't know. [54:51.000 --> 54:58.000] Don't take my full word, but I think it's something like 70 percent of people in Gaza like are, you know, [54:59.000 --> 55:05.000] ancestrally refugees from somewhere else. So, you know, it could have been anyone. [55:06.000 --> 55:10.000] I don't mean to say that in like to center myself or to center my experience. [55:10.000 --> 55:14.000] I just feel so awful that that's how it's determined. [55:15.000 --> 55:20.000] And, you know, they they just ended up there and anyone else could have ended up there. [55:21.000 --> 55:26.000] And it's not like I ever felt fully secure, but we've been in like a state of political status. [55:26.000 --> 55:29.000] So you kind of get lulled into a false sense of security. [55:29.000 --> 55:35.000] And I think Israel wants you to feel that so that you don't bother to do anything and you just get used to life under occupation. [55:37.000 --> 55:44.000] But I think recently it's been one of the first times I feel a real material threat to like my house and my land. [55:44.000 --> 55:48.000] Not that anything's happened yet, but in five years, you know, it could. [55:49.000 --> 55:52.000] And I felt very aware of that. And I want to go home and visit. [55:53.000 --> 55:55.000] I don't know to get my time in. [55:56.000 --> 56:11.000] But something that I always felt taken away from me or that I in recent years I realized was taken away from me is my disconnection from my people and my land that I can't access. [56:12.000 --> 56:27.000] So I remember during May 2021, I was in Palestine and some people call it the unity uprising at that time because there was stuff happening in Gaza in the West Bank and even Palestinians in 48, which is like unheard of, you know. [56:28.000 --> 56:33.000] And in that time, like I had made friends in the last year of people from 48. [56:34.000 --> 56:45.000] And I've never been to Gaza, but there was a friend of mine who studied in Turkey and she met a Gazan boy there who I had on Instagram and we would speak sometimes. [56:45.000 --> 56:57.000] So during May 2021, I was it was really beautiful because I my friend in Gaza was messaging me checking in on me and I was messaging my friends in 48 checking in on them and they were messaging me. [56:57.000 --> 57:05.000] And it was the first time I felt I had had a connection like this. And that is just because of, you know, growing up in circumstances and travel and whatever. [57:06.000 --> 57:19.000] But I really felt how that was like not an option for me because we're so disconnected. We don't get to meet each other. And I'm cut off from certain, you know, culturally specific things of Palestinians from 48 that like I've never gotten to experience. [57:20.000 --> 57:25.000] I've never gotten to share. I really resent what that when I do have a permit and I do get to go to the beach. [57:26.000 --> 57:34.000] I'm painfully aware like I'm with my friends that grew up there and I don't get access to this. And that makes me really sad. [57:35.000 --> 57:43.000] You go from, you know, wherever you are in the West Bank and it's like you're on the Tel Aviv Highway, you're surrounded by skyscrapers. [57:43.000 --> 57:50.000] And it's really insane that like an hour away, all these wildly different realities exist. [57:51.000 --> 58:01.000] So, I mean, obviously the taking away of culture and the taking away of land about this connection between each other and this connection with our land gets a bit abstracted. [58:05.000 --> 58:14.000] We'll be back next week with part three of the On Palestine series in which we will be covering a way forward with vulnerability and honesty. [58:15.000 --> 58:31.000] There are various resources linked in the show notes that Zina, Faisal and Noor mentioned and shared with me during our recordings from the Palestinian creatives that Zina mentioned and an article on Muhammad al-Durah and how his death shaped a generation. [58:32.000 --> 58:41.000] Please read, share and learn. You will also find links to the presence of some of our guests in the series in the show notes. [58:42.000 --> 58:50.000] A special thanks to Melek and Mysiri, Ban Barqawi and Ariana Martinez for their guidance and support in the series. [58:50.000 --> 59:02.000] And of course, a very special thanks to our guests, Zina, Faisal and Noor for being so open and sharing their stories and experience of Palestine. Transcription results written to '/home/forge/transcribe2.sonicengage.com/releases/20240202210301' directory
belonging,culture,home,roots,palestine,