🕊️ bonus: let’s talk about refugees — with Baharak

[00:00:05] Hello and welcome back to the Inbetweenish pod, a place where we talk about growing up in between countries, cultures, ethnicities and faiths. I'm your host Beatriz Nour and I aim to create a safe space for the already confused to discuss complicated emotions around home and belonging.

[00:00:22] Today we have a special bonus episode for you on like any other we've done. We're releasing this on the 20th of June International Refugee Day because that is the subject at hand today.

[00:00:34] I'm joined by my friend Baharak Bosmani as she leads us through the distinction between refugees and asylum seekers, Stigmas and myths around refugees, why people flee, the media's role in all this and so much more. Baharak comes at this from several vantage points.

[00:00:49] It's a very personal topic for her. She used once her refugee herself as a child, and later in life as an adult she worked with the UNHCR in Uganda. We cover Baharak's personal life trajectory in our episode together, notions of home.

[00:01:03] And today she shares her wisdom on her blog rooted in me. You'll find the link to several of her articles in the show notes below. And now without further ado, let's get into it. We're starting off from the premise, no question is taboo. All questions are welcome.

[00:01:19] Do you want to give me a simple definition for what is a refugee? And what is an asylum seeker? Let's start with these two terms first. So, a refugee is basically defined under the international law under the 1951 Convention.

[00:01:41] And a refugee is a status that's given to a person. And it means that the person has left their country, so they're national borders. And they have fleed due to persecution. So that's just like a very, very simple definition of who's a refugee.

[00:02:07] A asylum seeker is, you know, they say that they're a refugee. But their claim hasn't yet been evaluated. Because like a refugee, asylum seeker has left their borders and they are fleeing persecution. So now every asylum seeker will be recognized as their a refugee.

[00:02:31] But every refugee is initially an asylum seeker. So is it fair to say that you become an asylum seeker simply by leaving the place that you're from? But you become a refugee. It's a granted status by another entity. Exactly. Basically it's a legal definition.

[00:02:56] So, a refugee is a legal status that's given, whether by the UN refugee agency or by another entity be it, the government that you have applied asylum from. Because whether you're asylum seeker or a refugee, you're seeking asylum.

[00:03:16] Seeking asylum is actually a human right, a global human right. So there's a universal declaration of human rights that was written in 1948 following the Second World War. And in that, it's clearly states and this is not per country, this is universally.

[00:03:37] You are allowed to seek asylum, to seek protection, it's a human rights law. Now I want to turn to the definition of a displaced person. So usually we say internally displaced person. And that is IDP, so they haven't left their national borders here.

[00:04:00] So they are displaced within their country due to natural disaster or political reason or any sort of persecution or whatever it may be. But they haven't been able to leave their country. They're still within their borders and therefore they're internally displaced person.

[00:04:24] You know, whether the person is a refugee asylum seeker or internal displaced person in all of these situations, the person is forced to leave their home, forced to flee in very dangerous situations, completely out of their hand out of their choice. So they have something in common.

[00:04:50] That's I think what is underlying in all of these situations. So let me ask another question, and an asylum seeker seek protection refuge home anywhere in the world. Yes, so whether that will be granted or not, that's a totally different thing.

[00:05:13] But seeking protection asylum is a human rights. So yes, you can. As long as you have crossed your borders, your home country borders. But then it's up to that country depends where you've managed to get yourself to, whether that country sets up to receive asylum seekers,

[00:05:33] to grant refugee status or not. Is there UN refugee agency in place instead of the government who can handle the situation or not? And another definition that is often confused in the strong one when we talk about refugees asylum seekers and displaced person,

[00:05:56] even though it's a bit different is immigrant. Can you give me a definition for immigrants? Okay, so I think it's also, you know, there is a little, little tiny difference between an immigrant and a migrant.

[00:06:11] So an immigrant is someone, you know, who makes a conscience decision to leave their home and move somewhere else. And their intention to settle there and, you know, to make a new life for themselves.

[00:06:31] Usually this implies permanent residents or eventually even becoming a citizen, the immigrant has made a conscience choice to go and start somewhere else. New.

[00:06:43] Whereas a migrant can be either migrating within their country for seasonal work or you see usually we don't associate these things with anywhere in Europe, but, you know, technically speaking, if you are living in.

[00:06:59] And then you move from one side of the country to another side of the country, if you were given a better work opportunity. And you're migrating so you're migrants, but we like to associate these terms always with non western countries. I think it's an important point.

[00:07:20] I think oftentimes the media portrays that to put it very bluntly, people of color black and people of color are migrants white people are expats and that's a bit problematic. And that is a narrative that's very consciously driven by media.

[00:07:41] Now, one of the main differences between a migrant person who's moving for better work opportunities and internally displaced person, a science-eeker or a refugee, is on the move. They're both on the move, migrants and refugee, a science-eeker and internally displaced person.

[00:08:00] The differences, some are being, are scared for their lives. That's what persecuted means and some are just seeking better opportunities. So the intention of the move is very different. Some are seeking better pay and some are seeking, I don't want to be killed. That is the bottom line.

[00:08:23] And also, like I would like to say, there's nothing wrong with someone seeking to better their life. It's not taking anything away from anyone else. No, absolutely not. And actually one of the countries that we always talk about, the US is policy about people moving there.

[00:08:43] These things are constantly in the news, what they do to Latinos who come there. The US and Canada are countries based on immigration, whether you immigrated to generations ago or whether you immigrated 10 generations ago. Unless you're an indigenous person, you are an immigrant. Your history comes from that.

[00:09:06] Yeah. No, it's very valid. I mean, it's important to understand that because we're very quick to put labels and stick my, and these words, what are you using refugee asylum, psychomagrant immigrants? They're also loaded. Yeah.

[00:09:25] You know, so it's like the minute someone enters any of these words, half the time they don't even necessarily know the true meaning of it or what that person would have had to go through.

[00:09:38] So I'm how do these things arise? They arise usually under conflict, war, ethnic or political violence. You know, and most of these, when you look at them, it's kind of goes if you fall under any minority group.

[00:09:54] And there's a conflict within the country. You're marginalized and you have less rights. That's usually why. So let's go into what that means. So if you're a minority religious group within a country, for example, you're not the 90% or the 10% or the 2% of another religion.

[00:10:15] You might not have the same opportunities for work. For example, you might be discriminated against in that sense. You face racism and bigotry because you are ever different religious group, maybe because of the way you choose to dress, maybe because of your name.

[00:10:34] A lot of times names can also give away what kind of group you belong to. You can also face violence, for example. We can take an example from Iran. And this is not just to say that this happened here. I'm just giving an example by happens all around.

[00:10:51] Iran consists of various ethnic minority groups who are also from different, you know, it's it's irons and melting pot itself. There is religions where there are ethnicities living in the same country. But unfortunately they don't all have the same rights, they are very marginalized.

[00:11:17] So for example, a Bahai, which is a religion, they cannot attend university. Oh, because they're Bahai. The law at some point, I think changes all that you cannot name your child whatever you want.

[00:11:32] It had to be a Muslim name. So these all have effect on how you can live your life. Yeah, they're constructing you. The very constructing, but these in itself are not grants for refugees status because your life is not in danger because of it, for say.

[00:11:57] Yeah, so that's an important element of even applying for refugee status as your life has to be in danger. And you have to be able to prove it. Okay, so these are the reasons why people leave.

[00:12:14] In the past, let's say two decades, what are some major events that have caused asylum seekers? I think that might help, clarify certain things? Maybe we need to start by first looking at how did UNHCR, which is the UN Refugee Agency even started.

[00:12:37] The UN HCR was putting place to deal with European crisis of work or two and the refugees there. So now, many decades later, an agency that was only supposed to be working for three years is still working and is more relevant than ever before.

[00:12:59] So because there has been crisis after crisis that generates refugees and displacement, I think it's good to refer as a word displacement because that covers everyone that is affected. Whether they're refugee asylum seekers, IDP, they're all including that. Currently we have more than 89 million people who are displaced.

[00:13:31] That is huge number. That is a huge number. So before we go further into this, okay, so we said that this place it means internally displaced person, a silencing, refugee. Let's break down this place, it's a little bit more.

[00:13:49] I mean, I almost want to break down the etymology of the word. This placement means not in the right place. Yeah, I mean this place and I suppose so, I mean this place is simply me that you have had to leave the place that you're in.

[00:14:09] So whether that's your home to go to a neighboring town, whether you've had to go further to another city, whether you've had to go even further. To leave the country, so you're displaced. You're no longer where you set up home.

[00:14:30] That's a very good definition and I'm glad you bought it back to home. It always comes back to home. It always comes back to home. Yeah. Yeah, there's a reason why it's called a home country, right?

[00:14:43] Because it's like, yes, technically where you're supposed to have had and build your roots. But for some reason or another, you were not able to. In parallel to the UNHCR being formed, it was around the same time that the Universal Declaration of Human Rights was formed.

[00:15:02] And correct me if I wrong, but I think there are 30 universal human rights for every citizen in the world, no matter what country, race, religion, age. These are universal human rights. And that came out around the same time.

[00:15:19] Yes, really because the world had gone through such an enormous crisis and a failure of humanity, really, that the UNHCR and the Universal Declaration of Human Rights had to be established.

[00:15:33] Now, obviously the UNHCR is still around this topic refugees and asylum seekers is more important than ever before at this point. You gave a figure 89 million people in the world today are displaced.

[00:15:49] Now, I want to understand, so we covered why people flee, why people leave because their lives are in danger for a number of different reasons. So once you are an asylum seeker, let's go into the limitations and opportunities as an asylum seeker.

[00:16:09] Generally speaking, asylum seekers are not allowed to work while waiting for their asylum status to be determined.

[00:16:22] To not have the right to work, it comes with a lot of emotional burden that you have to do with because on one hand you're already dealing with the stigma being an asylum seeker.

[00:16:35] And then, you know, people saying you're here and you're not working and you're eating off the government. But you simply are not allowed to work.

[00:16:45] Yeah, I talked about this in one of the previous episodes, but there was an excellent show that came out earlier this year on Netflix called Moe, loosely based on the life of the main actor whose name is Moe as well.

[00:16:58] And his family, they were Palestinian displaced people. They lived in Quate before that, but they were Palestinian there in the US. They have been in the US for years.

[00:17:07] They have not been granted refugee status and therefore the only work they can do is kind of like, I don't want to say black work it, but like not official work.

[00:17:18] Yeah, they have to find a way because you still need to make money, you still need to live, you still need to have a roof over your head.

[00:17:24] But the government doesn't necessarily take care of all that because it's a legal process that can take years and in that case actually it depicts literally years literally years. Yeah.

[00:17:37] So I think that's a good example to give people to hopefully like go watch sea. It's a show but see the reality of what that implies.

[00:17:47] So yeah, so that's one thing. So asylum seekers cannot legally pursue work. So they have to find illegal ways to kind of do that and even seeing that feels iffy because it's not a choice so much as it's like these are my life circumstances and I have to deal with it.

[00:18:05] That's the thing. It's just, you know for me personally when I think or talk about the topic it constantly comes back to two words choice and home.

[00:18:17] Everything out of your control, you have no control, you have no choice, you just have to do as you're told almost and you don't have a home.

[00:18:30] Yeah, difficult to overcome senses even if you're in the process of getting certain things and sometimes it's not even granted right like you can your refuge, do you start as can be rejected.

[00:18:43] Oh, 100%. I mean most asylum seekers you know they are in this limbo for years and years. And within those years they still you know you still have to live a life right and they might have children who because that child.

[00:19:00] This is by the way European case so this does not apply anywhere else. So in Europe that child is granted citizenship of that country because they were born there but then we still have seen cases where the parent has been reported back to their home country because they were not granted asylum or refuge.

[00:19:26] So there it's so high to understand these cases because you know like six years later this person has lived in this country has learned the language has accustomed to the culture and the way of life has made a life for themselves has a family now and yet they can be deployed.

[00:19:46] Like there is zero guarantee. Can you walk me through your experience of becoming an internally displaced person and asylum seeker a refugee and then a citizen just to give a very concrete is not a fabricated made up story this is your very personal history of how it happened and unfolded for you.

[00:20:15] I was very in mind at the time I was quite young so certain things I don't remember every detail. So I was nine when you could say that we were internally displaced for a short period of time while we were.

[00:20:33] I suppose my parents figuring out what to do next and then we from Iran got to Pakistan and I was I was nine at the time and then so having left national borders you would be considered at this point asylum seeker.

[00:20:52] In technical words and we got to the United Nations High Commissioner for refugees which is the UN Refugations the UNHCR and apply for refugee status.

[00:21:07] And that is a lot of paperwork that basically the burden of proof is on the person applying for the status so you have to prove. Are you truly refugee or not based on those criteria?

[00:21:24] Like, is your life in danger? You have to prove that your life is in danger.

[00:21:29] Yeah, so you have to under under the 1951 convention. So it's someone who is unable or unwilling to return to their country of origin, owning to a well founded fear of being persecuted for five reasons and these reasons are race religion nationality membership of particular social group or political opinion.

[00:21:54] So you have to prove how do you fall under any of these. Now usually obviously when people have to flee it's not like they have neatly packed stuff and got everything in order.

[00:22:10] But that's another thing. So then I don't know exactly what I would have been I don't know 10 or maybe almost 11 but so that's when we got recognized by the UN Refugations as refugees.

[00:22:29] So they had granted us the status that particular time and that particular country where we were meant that we would be up for resettlement.

[00:22:44] But that doesn't mean that now we have a choice and we go, oh I really would love to move to Canada. No it doesn't work like that. The countries that are a signatory to the 1951 convention some have also pledged to take certain amount of refugees in for resettlement.

[00:23:07] But then they come and you know thousands and thousands of refugees for example in that place under that one UN Refugations, but when a country comes they can't interview everyone.

[00:23:21] So there's just literally going to it's like a lottery game. So between the UN Agency and the country they choose select number of people they're going to interview based on the criteria that they've set and national agenda.

[00:23:35] So then they interview you and then from that they will take a handful of people for resettlement. And we were refused by number of countries but you don't always even get to the interview stage it's like a job application.

[00:23:50] But then we were accepted by Finland. And so we were resettled to Finland I was about 12. So when you are resettled technically speaking you are no longer refugee because now when you're resettled you have left that cycle of being an asylum security guard refugee.

[00:24:10] So you should technically be referred to as a what's the term I'm looking for as a permanent resident permanent resident exactly because you're not citizen yet, but you're not refugee.

[00:24:24] So but you're a permanent resident because that particular government gave you residency. But then I was 17 when I got my finished citizenship and it's not like you just get a citizenship you still have to apply for it. You still have to pass language criteria and other criteria and these change all the time in each country and based on their requirements. So it's not like.

[00:24:54] Whatever I did whatever many years ago that will be the same now or in every other country. Your journey started off being displaced at nine in Iran and took you through different entities and countries and finally at 17 eight years later you got citizenship.

[00:25:17] I really like that you pointed out the process of when you're granted refugee status, but then the country that you end up being resettled in is not in your hands by any means.

[00:25:33] Actually in the hands of the UN agencies paired with the different governments that agreed to take in refugees every year. So in actuality it's the finish representatives that came to the UNHCR in Pakistan that's elected your family to move to Finland.

[00:25:55] That's high works. Yeah, because depending on the year and the country they are trying to fulfill their national agenda of what is it that they are looking for.

[00:26:06] Yeah, what are they're looking for a family of this background or this size or from this particular region. Whatever their criteria may be. Yeah, thank you for illustrating just one example that represents actually your personal history of how long and strongest this process can be.

[00:26:29] And still highlighting that there are so many ways that this can go and for the majority of people who seek asylum around the world they're actually not resettled.

[00:26:42] No, no and that's the thing it's the numbers are vast. There are millions of refugees and and they're stuck in a limbo because it's a very small number that gets resettled very small.

[00:27:00] And so the media 100% plays a very big part and then you know, I will bring this up because I think it's relevant. You look at the situation in Ukraine and utterly devastating what is happening not trying to deny that it is absolutely terrible.

[00:27:22] But what is interesting is the reception of Ukrainian refugees in Europe, how they were treated, how doors were open, how everybody was happy to help still happy to help.

[00:27:39] And companies donating supplies and money people literally opening their doors which is beautiful and that is what you want to see.

[00:27:49] But then it's conditional, it's not the same if you happen to be from another part of the world if you're from Middle East or Africa literally if your skin color is not white. The doors are shut.

[00:28:07] And actually the coverage of that when the war first broke out was very blunt, there was news coverage of reporters saying live. These are people just like us shocking white skin blue eyes long hair.

[00:28:25] Yeah, remember that's the color of your skin doesn't make you more fit to be a refugee or an asylum secret or more fit for war no one is fit for war that's not a thing.

[00:28:38] I think it was also a slight reminder because the UN refugee agency was established in the aftermath of war war two. Because of your opinion or situation under your European refugees and it was given a temporary mandate unlike any of the other UN agencies.

[00:28:59] And up to today it still has a temporary mandate so which means that it gets funding only for so many years at the time because we still want to. I believe that the refugee situation in crisis will somehow end but and then with the Ukraine war.

[00:29:19] I think for Europe it was a it was a scary reminder of oh this can happen in our backyard because it hasn't happened for so many years doesn't mean that it cannot happen.

[00:29:31] Absolutely I think it was a reminder that this can happen to any country any region persecution does not discriminate I can tell you that. What is an excellent line yes I agree persecution definitely does not discriminate.

[00:29:48] I was just going to say as we were discussing about stigma and. And you know how media reports and how governments have got their own agenda is obviously with with this entire topic words really have powers.

[00:30:07] They're always loaded depending on how we want to use them and with the Syrian refugee crisis you know it was so easily refer throughout different channels and different newspapers as a migrant crisis rather than a refugee crisis that he was and still is.

[00:30:25] Whereas Ukraine crisis was referred to as a refugee crisis it really does matter. And so it's matter as people we should really think sometimes before we just throw labels. I think the media does this quite intentionally and that goes back to what we were saying earlier.

[00:30:50] People of color people who are not white to basically do tend to be portrayed in the media more as.

[00:30:56] The migrant come to steal your jobs whereas the situation that unfolded in Ukraine the way that unfolded in Ukraine that was not at all how they were portrayed and how they are being portrayed.

[00:31:09] And in both cases actually what happened in Syria and what happened in Ukraine is much the same there's war in these countries and people want to flee to. Basically so it's not a different situation it's maybe a different region and different looking yeah exactly.

[00:31:27] Yeah as I'm glad you pointed that out and honestly I would encourage people to be more critical when they read the news and understand the nuances of because.

[00:31:40] The news is not ethical we all know this you know we all know the news misrepresent things and hasn't agenda and so I think it's important to understand the context of what they're talking about. And what political party they come from honestly.

[00:31:55] And I think in 2023 we are all that much smarter and that much more well aware of situations that you know we can just consume news as it's given to us as if it's the law it's not.

[00:32:10] It's there to be debated it's there to be analyzed where is the source where is it coming from what is the purpose of it you know what are they trying to sell with it there's an agenda behind it so.

[00:32:22] We all have the right and the obligation to question and to advocate. Before we jump into the stigma around being a refugee in the silent secret I want to go into the question of.

[00:32:39] What you're going to do is you're going to do a question of once you're granted refugee status where you go next. Is that decided for you or do you get to pick like you know what I feel like going here today so that's where I'm going to settle.

[00:32:53] Country shopping isn't that what it's called. Yeah definitely not. So if you are a refugee on their D UNAC R mandate and say.

[00:33:06] You are in one of the countries where there's a UNAC R office for example Turkey or Pakistan they have the UNAC R offices there and you know now they've granted you refugees status which in itself is already. A big deal to even come through that hurdle.

[00:33:25] I mean you still are in a limbo you have no hope for the future yet. I think what people don't always realize as well is very small.

[00:33:35] Propulsion of refugees are actually resettled so resettlement is when say you are a refugee in Turkey and then a country takes you in with cooperation with human ACR and resettles you to their country. But this is very small portion and no you have absolutely no saying it whatsoever.

[00:33:59] But just to throw another figure at you I think this one is probably good to visualize a bit so you know earlier I said they're over 89 million people displaced in 2021 out of this huge number only. 57,000 people were resettled. Wow so take 89 million and then take 57,000.

[00:34:25] That's not even 1% no. No and what is 89 million people it's so hard to even conceptualize what this 89 million people mean that means one in every 78 people. That's crazy isn't it like I think it's good to apply to like a smaller scale just to see what that actually means.

[00:34:49] So so that's kind of like the process of being resettled and it doesn't really stop there the hurdle doesn't stop there. No. Yeah, it's just a different complexity. What happens when you're resettled is that you leave the statistics of being a refugee, don't ever retreat as you are.

[00:35:10] So but yeah exactly then is the whole new hurdle to. To get through learn a language adapt to your new environment and culture that. Most of the time doesn't really want you there at least that was my experience.

[00:35:27] Essentially you're trying to build a new home from scratch basically yeah different governments might help out that certain points but like not tremendously once you're resettled.

[00:35:40] Well I mean the thing is yes they help but it's it they help obviously in terms of when you get there to if you're resettled that is so they will give you your initial housing so at least like you know it's not like.

[00:35:57] You go and then you have to look for a house so like that is ready. Something you like or not that's beside the point because again you had no choice in choosing where that house is what type of house or anything and you're meant to constantly be grateful.

[00:36:15] And it's not like you're not grateful of course you're grateful to have your family in safety to to be given the chance to rebuild your life.

[00:36:25] But at the same time it's I think people forget that you constantly don't have a choice or say anything that's happening to you.

[00:36:35] So yes the government helps in that sense but other than that it's you know they've done their part and it's up to you to make the best of the situation yeah.

[00:36:47] And then it depends in that environment that you're dropped in you know they you know if you are resettled with your family then of course your children are given.

[00:36:57] Places in the local school etc but no I mean you kind of have to start rebuilding it and yeah hope for the best. So why do some refugees go to camps and other go into cities. That's a good question.

[00:37:16] Still most people think that refugees live in refugee camps and that's actually not true.

[00:37:25] The majority of refugees are what we call urban refugees so meaning they don't live in camps and it's not again because you chose to live in a camp or not live in a camp it just really depends on where you are and where you've led to.

[00:37:43] So for example I worked with UNACR in in Uganda close to Sudan border it's a big region so. I'm working on Germany and Mojo offices.

[00:37:59] I'm trying to build the pictures so you have a better image of what I'm talking about so where I worked we're talking no running water no electricity but yet there were no camps it was still an urban situation.

[00:38:15] So the Sudanese refugees that were there they lived where they lived there wasn't there were not all concentrating the camp but then in Kenya for example is one of the biggest refugee camps that there is.

[00:38:31] So it's totally dependent again on the country and the situation it's not there's not always camps actually more often than not there are no camps. That's that answer the sort of yeah so most most refugees are urban refugees meaning they live in the cities.

[00:38:49] Yeah exactly that's why I was trying to paint the picture of where I work so it wasn't exactly maybe city as what we would in the western world or in places like Dubai think of city but nonetheless there's no camp.

[00:39:03] Yeah they make do with what resources around them and what they can exactly.

[00:39:09] And just to add actually you know whether refugees are in camps or urban situations they do face a lot of danger because they're vulnerable to exploitation there you know they're in the poorest areas with limited resources and. Unfortunately quite often exploited.

[00:39:33] Yeah we we talk about refugees as a as this homogeneous group and they're not behind every label it's good to remember that it's not this one thing one way you know it's not I mean we say refugees but we're talking about different nationalities different ethnicities different religion groups different.

[00:39:58] And ages and so on and on and on and it is good to bear in mind that you're not talking about one person you're talking about 89 million people were displaced and within 89 million people you can fit whole lot of different types of.

[00:40:19] And then obviously personalities and backgrounds and all of that and one small group is under on a company miners.

[00:40:28] Yeah I think that's a very important reminder and possibly something we should have started with like there is no one size fits all here like you know refugees asylum seekers come from all over exactly what you said. Thank you for highlighting that I think that's very important.

[00:40:46] I want to take this moment to pivot into something we touched upon lightly earlier some of the. Misrepresentations around silencingers and refugees there's quite a few. Stickments around it and then there also some myths around being refugee in asylum seeker can you break these down for me.

[00:41:09] You know some of these we've already touched upon but just to go glance over them quickly so.

[00:41:16] One of the ones is that you know that most people just flee to US Europe or Australia and this is how it's reported in media really but the reality is that that's just not true whatsoever.

[00:41:31] Let's talk about displaced people because it covers everyone and I think that's better so most displaced people actually flee to neighboring countries because I don't want to really use the word easy but.

[00:41:44] That's more accessible in a way you know if you're if you're in other than I would say. Afghanistan it's it's easier and I hate using that word for you to get to you around that it is for you to get to US.

[00:41:58] Yeah of course so neighboring countries are actually the ones that are hosting most of displaced people. Besides obviously they internal displaced people so 72% of what are you want to call them asylum seekers or refugees are actually hosted by neighboring countries.

[00:42:18] 72% percent well okay so the five top countries that are hosting most refugees and asylum seekers today obviously this changes somewhat but not that much are Turkey Columbia Uganda Pakistan and Germany.

[00:42:38] So yeah I mean I think that is really important to bear in mind that that most people actually flee to neighboring countries you know. Over 80% of displaced people are hosted by what we would refer to possibly as lower and middle income countries so not the West.

[00:42:58] So that's another way to look at it like over 80% of the number we're talking about are actually in developing countries and middle income exactly so not in Western countries.

[00:43:11] Yeah so that's I would say is the number one perhaps misconception or a myth and the other one that came up earlier is that all refugees live in camps again that is really not the case.

[00:43:29] According to UNACR data over 60% of refugees are in urban areas and this is as of 2018. Yeah. Oh another myth that definitely is that refugees you know they leave their countries to find better jobs.

[00:43:49] First of all believe implies that you know you had a choice which I think we have covered well by now that there is no choice here that refugees flee.

[00:44:01] For for their life and really at that point better job is not in the list of things that one is thinking about most likely they already have a very good job and living that they have to leave behind.

[00:44:20] Another myth that is that you know refugees get access like to education in their country of asylum and this is a myth because as much as that this is country specific. And there are certain data that we can look at to make sense of this.

[00:44:42] You know me for example I was a refugee kid in Pakistan and have access to education as I said in your previous episode where we talked about this. So I did have some schooling but this was like makeshift schooling not official schooling.

[00:44:59] It's important to bear in mind that majority of refugees children don't have access to even primary schooling talkless of secondary. So just about 60% of refugee children have access to primary education but then secondary education 23% only because it's not available.

[00:45:24] You know it's not part of the national agenda of the host country to provide this. So it's not for job it's not for schooling because you're actually giving up all of that.

[00:45:38] And one thing that came up I kept seeing it on news outlets particularly when we use to see Syrian refugees in the news and a lot of talks about why today have mobile phones.

[00:45:53] I mean why wouldn't they have mobile phones? I mean again we go back to the assumption of like these are poor people with no means. That are coming to take our resources and that's exactly what is not happening.

[00:46:08] So look can any of us imagine to go even a day without a phone I mean why am I even saying hey day just few hours without your phone. Can you imagine that I mean you're so connected everything is on that phone.

[00:46:22] So why wouldn't a person who is a refugee have to write to have a phone? People were trying to portray this as like oh but you know they have an iPhone okay what do you have?

[00:46:34] I mean okay it's a choice some people have some time some people have iPhone but like you know again like why is this why is this even an issue why are we going discussing about what type of phone.

[00:46:47] A refugee has rather than what has happened to them their entire life is being operated at the moment. Yeah I mean there has to be a certain level of petty to be like oh well look at this right she just they have an iPhone like that's.

[00:47:04] Honestly ask anybody today no matter what conditions they're living in there's a fire in your house what's the first thing you take before running up door you take your phone you know what I mean you're not taking your.

[00:47:14] You take your phone it's the phone because it's you know the phone has more than phone numbers in it it actually does have scan copies or photocopies of most of your documents as well. Exactly it's the one thing and it also then allows you to stay connected.

[00:47:36] Yeah with others. I'm actually really glad you bought this up about the phone because like there is definitely like a misconception that you know if you're a refugee if you're in a silencer you must be incredibly.

[00:47:50] Poor and disadvantaged and not be able to have these things in your home country whereas adults that seek asylum and become refugees if they're granted refugee status.

[00:48:00] They might have degrees from their home country they might have an education they might actually have like proper work experience absolutely because they're being relocated and resettled.

[00:48:10] It's almost like it doesn't even count it doesn't matter if you're have a university degree in your home country it doesn't it doesn't translate into our system so therefore you're starting from scratch you cannot have access to these jobs.

[00:48:24] That's that is where it comes down to which is very unfortunate because I think western host countries if that's what we want to call them. I think actually they're doing the services themselves like why not take advantage of the skilled.

[00:48:40] And educate it workforce that you've just got in. Yeah if you actually use that it is good for your economy it is good for that person because they feel. Value and part of the community also the community will see them less as a burden to their economy.

[00:49:01] You know it's like it's a win win situation so I'm awful. You know a lot of times it's what is used as another excuse is language barrier.

[00:49:11] Well yeah they you know they can have that particular job because they don't know the language so well so therefore if this is where exploitation even in western countries kicks in really well.

[00:49:23] You know we we would love to think that all is good in the western world and no human right the abuses are taking place and you know no one's being exploited but in fact people are because.

[00:49:38] Educated people with university degrees are not granted the same job or same salary so then they're given a lower income. I mean in my mind not speaking the same language is a valid concern but their solution isn't a pigeonhole them into certain types of jobs.

[00:50:02] The solution is to teach them the language is there enough going into that for example. Totally you know okay like I'm with you and I and I am also with people who bring this language issue up.

[00:50:17] I get it and I'm not saying if a person you know certain jobs just do require you to know the language but it doesn't mean that you have to be absolutely hundred and ten percent perfect in it of course.

[00:50:29] If if I can understand you and you can understand me and that okay fine you know there are some mistakes grammatically here there might not pronounce everything perfectly well but if I can get the job done. What's the issue here?

[00:50:45] There's like a glass ceiling to what position you can get based on your background.

[00:50:53] I'm understanding of the language yeah sure the person needs to speak the language but you're absolutely right like the person doesn't need to write a dissertation in that language to be able to get a certain job you know.

[00:51:04] There's also the whole thing around this something that comes up a lot on the in between the holding around accents and accent doesn't mean. That you're less knowledgeable and accent means that you have you speak another language as your mother tongue actually that's what it means you know.

[00:51:19] It's actually a richness if we really want to think about it absolutely absolutely yeah.

[00:51:26] You know it comes down to fear of unknown and fear of yes most books everyone in that same box because it looks pretty to me and I can make sense of it though it makes literally no sense whatsoever.

[00:51:42] And it comes back to my point that I made earlier you are trying to put millions and millions of people into this one box.

[00:51:52] That's never going to make sense yes we all you know look we all make generalizations I make generalizations everyday all day long but we have to be very careful with them and when you try to put an entire term refugee in a box you are forgetting that you are putting whole lot of different.

[00:52:11] And the different ethnicities nationalities religions etc etc etc into the same box we have to be mindful of this. Absolutely I completely agree at this point we need to be careful with how we had to grow and what's behind that.

[00:52:27] It's not a coincidence that the terms and what it means to be a refugee in an asylum seeker is highly stigmatized.

[00:52:35] This was by design to cause fear of a lot of the times brown people non white people because as we saw earlier this year it wasn't the same reception to white your pin Caucasian refugees in the silencing Chris.

[00:52:53] Yeah it's a bit problematic to say this but like this is essentially what I see as the truth of what's happening.

[00:53:00] It is the truth I wish there was another way to you know, tie a bow around it and make it sound pretty but you know and people will sometimes have all bad experience with a refugee.

[00:53:13] And then that's it all refugees are now bad people again you have just boxed millions of people into that same place because you had one or two bad experience.

[00:53:26] Yeah there's a lot of fear mongering and unfortunately even if there's one bad example it's generalized oftentimes in the media to the group which is really unfair. Yes. Not it.

[00:53:41] So now we're getting to the end of this episode and I want to ask you what are the takeaways here one thing that kept repeatedly coming up is this is not a choice no one chooses to approve their lives and their children's lives and the stability that everybody hopes for in a home to seek uncertainty and limbo.

[00:54:05] And for years nobody chooses that. That is I think at the center of this. Once we remember that that choice is taking away from people it's a good starting point from there perhaps we can understand better you know.

[00:54:29] It's always difficult and sometimes you know it's it's not we don't mean to be in sensitive or it's just life sometimes I will put that out as well and I get it because forgetting refugees for a second.

[00:54:48] You know we can be very judgmental even with our neighbor you know not knowing what goes on in their life and I think that's a reminder for all of us just even though it's hard because we're so consumed with our own lives.

[00:55:04] We just take the judgment down a notch and see people for people rather than all these labels around them that might be helpful.

[00:55:14] You and I get to walk this earth with endless possibilities and choices refugees, asylum seekers, this place people IDPs do not have that simple luxury choice. They've had to leave everything they've known everything that is dear to them.

[00:55:39] They're actual physical home, their notion of home, their friends, their families, their the smells, the aromas I mean everything. And go for nothing you have no idea what's on the other side if you will make it to the other side.

[00:55:59] Most end up in a limbo with no future for their families, you know that handful that does make it it's still a handful no matter what figure you want to look at.

[00:56:11] It's not like it's done, it's not you might have a second to take a deep breath but then there you go again now you have to make an in home and as we covered it comes with its own set of challenges.

[00:56:25] I want to end on a more hopeful note your experience your personal experience proves that it's not like once a refugee always refugee.

[00:56:36] Obviously it's a very small percentage of people that do get resettled but there's a life that can come after this very difficult period of anyone's life if they're ever unfortunate enough to be in the situation.

[00:56:49] Yes, nothing needs to be forever but for it not to continue forever it does. Despite how much a person tries themselves does require some outside interventions.

[00:57:08] It's not wasted on me I quite often go back and think about how lucky I am because I do acknowledge that I am one of literally a handful of people you know and maybe also because of that.

[00:57:24] I can only speak for myself obviously but like you know you really want to make the most of the chance you have.

[00:57:32] So you know I'd like to think that most people whether they are now refugees or not refugees you know once you're given a chance that you really try hard so that's another thing to bear in mind like people need that to be able to build a life.

[00:57:48] At the time of recording Barak mentioned the statistic back from 2021 when there were 89 million displaced people around the world. Today in June of 2023 the UNHCR is reporting 110 million people who are currently displaced. The UNHCR's theme this year for refugee week is hope away from home.

[00:58:10] Check out the resources in the show notes to see what you can do to help. This is our bonus episode for this season. It's a little different than the rest but it's so important to address and I hope you learned something new.

[00:58:21] If you did please share this episode with those around you. All links and resources mentioned in the episode are linked in the show notes. The UNB TunishPod is created and hosted by Beatrice Moore. A original music is composed and produced by American Meseedee.

[00:58:34] Thanks for tuning in. In between us signing off see you guys next time.